---
workshop_number: 8
date: 2026-04-20
title: Beyond MVG Workshop -- DRep Incentives
video_url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij8Nd0o3auE
youtube_description: |
  In this Beyond MVG workshop session, we reviewed the identified
  governance recommendations and zoomed into "DRep Incentives" --
  Ryan's 100k ADA pilot proposal (top-10 exclusion, ~10 ADA per
  proposal voted on), Ken Erik's stake-bleeding-style urgency case,
  and on-ledger vs smart-contract / saturated stake-pool delivery
  paths. Closed with platform onboarding feedback.
attendees:
  - Tevo Kask
  - Ryan
  - Jose
  - Jen
  - Seomon
  - Ken Erik
  - Steve Lockart
  - James
  - Iomi
  - Mark
  - Sebastian
  - Molen
---

# Workshop #8 Transcript -- DRep Incentives

Raw YouTube auto-caption transcript with original timestamps and
chapter markers preserved. Stored verbatim for machine reading and
future reference. The cleaned, paragraph-formatted version of this
conversation is summarised on the workshops page card; this file is
the source of truth for the spoken content.

## Transcript

0:00
trucks. What did you miss? Sorry, I was having mic issues
0:05
on Friday. Anything specific was talked about? Um,
0:11
yeah, on Friday we Yeah, there was a focus more on general governance. Um, yeah, we had a
0:18
call but unfortunately we didn't get to like record it and um but like several recommendations were
0:26
gathered. So yeah today maybe we we come across them as we look at it but as I
0:31
noticed over the weekend there was also like a sync like submissions happening.
0:36
So we have sometime we may need to also strategize how do we start to prioritize them
0:42
and then call and in the day also I was in SBO meeting and there we actually
0:49
looked at few SPO recommendation so that was also good. Is there a link where we
0:55
can you know find the the documents and stuff from the past meetings?
1:02
Um I think the GitHub is the best one and then the my board for example if we
1:11
go back to this this is the where we collected the like
1:18
milestone tree information. Great. Thank you.
1:27
By the way, uh Jack and who else? Uh Utah Ryan
1:35
and a bunch of guys on the Cardano 360 DREP concentration.
1:43
Good job. Good job. And and we got shield quite a lot as well. So that's
1:49
that's cool. Uh Jack mentioned it several times and yeah
1:55
people are eager to see u the report.
2:03
Yeah I wonder the report come and hello Jen
2:09
thanks for joining so I'm not the only woman in here.
2:16
U she mentioned uh she will be more quiet at the first 30 minutes or so. Um
2:23
she may be able to tune in in chat. Um well we kind of five minutes in. Um I

Participant check-in and governance updates

2:31
did wonder how we how Jose and Ryan is doing how last like few week has passed
2:38
and what's happening in your governance area maybe in like a wrap of two minutes but and then I would go into sharing the
2:46
screen and application and we dive into recommendations and that stuff. So if you have something to share, feel
2:53
free to open up.
2:59
Um, not really not not that much to share. Just uh I'm kind of joining the
3:04
conversation today. Uh trying to catch up on where the conversation is and uh
3:10
if if I have something valuable maybe eventually try to chip in. Happy to be
3:16
here.
3:22
Welcome. Um, and Ryan, you want to share something or
3:28
we just jump straight into activity? Yeah, I have I have a handful of tips. I
3:33
was just going to post them in chat. I mean, if you want, I could talk through them what they are. They're I think all pretty intuitive.
3:40
You have like an idea of recommendations you want to tap into. Um I've just I've just been working on them
3:46
just pushing them through the sit process and trying to put together a vote. Actually I guess the vote itself is another thing I should share. Um
3:53
okay I will then share screen go over the application and share how that would
3:58
be best shared through the application itself so that it's like equally across the rest of the recommendations that are
4:05
done and how to like prioritize that so that if we do deep dive in this call
4:11
today uh we can we know how to like elevate that recommendation.
4:18
Sure. You want me to just share screen? I just talked to him. U I mean I will share the application first and then we
4:25
put this. Yeah, I don't have an an application that I'm working on. They're all SIPs that just change things in Cardano like
4:32
in the ledger. I understand. So what I'm sharing you right now is the application where we

Overview of the recommendations platform

4:37
are collecting recommendations. Oh, I see. So we used to do it on motherboard. Um we do have a motherboard
4:44
in the backup but we thought like okay let's have like um constructive structured discussion and already help
4:50
us like pull tools that help us get to this more nuance discussions in how we
4:56
prioritize recommendations and where we should put focus on. Gotcha. And on the chat I link to that
5:02
application too. Um last time last week we basically spent more time in um
5:09
looking at the recommendations. or like coming up with recommendations
5:14
where here I would like to focus a bit on what's already here and see how they
5:20
are looking like and then look at what's missing and yeah and that that um like
5:25
understanding of how can we asynchronously like improve our proposals and
5:31
recommendations in general. Uh hello also Steve Lockart
5:36
and James again joining in. Steve I don't know how much have you like followed up with what beyond is doing
5:44
but basically got funded through the Cardano treasury and then oh and hello Sebastian I hope your mic knows
5:52
um and we we are basically working on pulling like a dashboard of metrics that
5:58
are onchain metrics and are like they affect governance. We have done now a
6:03
bit of like observations and insights like what we saw from the metrics themselves. Um actually I have the
6:08
motherboard open. Um and this and then after like
6:14
observations there was like a step of analysis where we uh analyze like what are the in what the people said and then
6:20
we had even open call to capture even more like insights from the versions themselves
6:27
and and throughout this kind of period I don't I'm still don't know if the milestone 3 is out but basically there

Key governance challenges and recommendation process

6:33
is a version of like the accumulation of all the insights and most relevant
6:39
information and now for this final milestone where we're like looking at how what recommendations we can apply to
6:45
all of these like problems and challenges we brought up there is now a list of challen okay
6:53
um which is now in this page called challenges which are basically going through like u the highest like
7:02
priorities that came up that that we should like address for example here is
7:07
more stake remains dormant than engaged in voting leaving open the possibility of the significant changes in town power
7:13
dynamics in the future of unexpected voting swings. Then there's like different categories for them and so now
7:22
we come to the like last week where we jumped into looking at these um challenges and coming up with what some
7:29
of kind of recommendations and discussions about them. So this is where Ryan you maybe want to
7:36
jump in where you can yeah post in like add recommendations there you can browse
7:42
challenges assign any kind of like existing chances and it does even if your recommendation doesn't address any
7:48
existing challenges like the voting power is concentrating it's it's fine to still recommend you
7:55
put your recommendations and you mentioned already sips and all of that information that could be pasted as
8:00
links in the like the additional section and today if we not if but let's play

Prioritization exercise begins

8:08
around with this kind of prioritization page I'm going to directly link to that
8:13
uh where you will see list of all these um like uh recommendations that are done
8:19
and with this kind of like ready ranking style method we have like up vote
8:24
options to do we want to have discussion about it do we want to deepen it or not
8:30
um And we have to spend our rest of the work group basically
8:36
looking at these what do we think as collective in this call we think are the most uh pressing recommendations we
8:43
should dive into and put focus on and make sure they are addressed in gard
8:49
any questions I kind of shared five minute monologue here so Mark
8:56
joining in Iomi um is There's no questions then let's start
9:03
with the first initial kind of goal where we open this sharing the link
9:08
again for the new joiners and to the prioritization page and let's take like
9:14
five minutes to simply skim the website see what titles or recommendations kind
9:21
of uh look great for you can for now hide scores they are all default scores
9:27
so it doesn't really um affect us at at the moment and you will be able to see
9:32
what they write as a recommendations. Some do put more information. Uh so yeah, they some are quick, some are a
9:39
bit longer ones and then let's up download them and see what the state is
9:47
at the end. Um
9:52
and yeah, you may have to like if the login stuff happens then um on this
9:57
upside right corner up right corner you will be able to join us travel account
10:04
and even if you don't want to use like Google or wallet and yes production should also work
10:12
out to James.
10:17
Okay, I'm going to also do some reading. Getting catch up. Um, we have a sort option newest. So, let's see what was
10:24
added. While I was not paying attention, I stop sharing for now and pick it up in
10:31
3 minutes. Uh, just just a quick check in if everyone knows what we are doing. I saw
10:39
someone just join. Um there maybe you want to tell him what
10:45
we're doing or them what we're doing. I'm going to ask him. Yeah. Yeah. I think we have to now go into the
10:51
next step. And I I do wonder I see on the platform held
10:58
that that was seven votes but I know of course it wasn't like that just meeting that we had or previously
11:06
um and right now if I refresh it I'm not sure
11:11
if others also have downloaded or uploaded. Okay, so something is moving
11:16
around here. But uh considering how many people we have in this code, it's not that much,

Deep dive into DRep incentives

11:26
but let's um use what we have. Um there are two votes for the TV incentives and
11:34
and uh let's dive into what is this one item and I prepared also like guiding
11:42
questions and we can just like open a floor on this one. We read through it again and
11:49
see like how valuable is this recommendation for Ghana.
11:55
D incentives applied research and development related to incentive models to steer more qualified participation
12:02
not merely a partic participation but qualified meaning more rationals more
12:07
detailed reviews and less votes missed. There are different initiatives being developed by the community to tackle
12:13
this. So in my view creating a working group to coordinate and fund applied reshares and development of models is
12:19
important. The final product can be a CIP for offsh models and tackles
12:26
different evidences compensation and stuff. Half of those contain rational.
12:33
So improving the the amount of rational you get propose are complex to analyze
12:38
the reporting power concentrating. Um so on this already initial
12:45
uh uh how is Seomon open up what's like initial text we can go around take like
12:51
four minutes and then we will look at each uh dimension separately if you want
12:58
to like go deeper into this topic itself and Seomon let's start with
13:04
you yeah just I just wanted to say it's a perfect topic because I as um the civics
13:12
committee member started a working group on this and uh we meet tomorrow at 11
13:19
UTC. So if you're interested to work on that if you're already especially if
13:24
you're already working on that it would be great to have you there or if you know someone who's already working there
13:29
maybe you can shoot them a quick message. It' be great to, you know, consolidate efforts and not do
13:37
double work on on every end on everyone who wants to work on that and
13:43
um, you know, brainstorm together.
13:49
Well, I I feel this is this is definitely a core thing to governance, right? So, it's not that we don't have
13:56
an incentive uh framework at the moment. Having no incentives is a framework.
14:02
It's just that the one that we are having by default and because we haven't been able to get together and and come
14:08
up with something better but we currently do have a framework and we are seeing the results in powering concentration of of the so it's
14:15
definitely something that I think is urgent um to to kind of um shift the the
14:23
tendencies that we are seeing wearing wearing tendencies that we're seeing in governance in Cardano. Um I'm not
14:30
familiar with the model that Molen is proposing here specifically. I do know
14:37
that there are a few initiatives uh around this and as Seomon was just saying
14:43
uh the important thing is to get together and get something out there different from what we have and then
14:49
iterate from there. Um it shouldn't be hard to do. I know there's a there's a
14:56
lot of voices, but it shouldn't be hard to do. It doesn't need to be perfect. It just need to be better than what we
15:02
have. Yeah, I opened up an assessment. So,
15:08
each recommendation has kind of recognized that you even say that this is a must that we need to focus on. And
15:16
you're right. But here I think I would be very beneficial if all of these
15:21
different initiatives that are having applied and are doing these little
15:26
experiments of stuff could be like aggregated here so we can amplify
15:32
through the state of governance report. Um and yeah Ryan
15:40
what's your initial take on it? Sorry, I'm writing out the uh the

Pilot funding proposal for incentive models

15:45
recommendation for it now, but the idea is basically to do a pilot program um
15:50
based on the paper I wrote. Uh do I have it? Yeah, I'll link it there. Um
15:56
to do a 100k ADA treasury withdrawal budget pilot program and basically where you you exclude the top 10 DR repres
16:06
uh 10 ADA per proposal that they vote on and you're measuring this is a pilot program. This is a very small amount of
16:11
ADA. it's only 100k ADA to do the pilot program. And you're measuring to see if it increases um decentralization. So,
16:17
does it help um voting power concentration? And then second, you're seeing if it increases participation.
16:23
And if any of those things increase, then it works. And then we can uh improve it from there. Or if it doesn't
16:29
work, then we can decline it and try something different.
16:36
Very nice. Okay. So I added that link to also into the comments and I'm going to
16:43
open up now assessment and I'm going to try to so I tried to come up with I
16:48
wrote like two white papers to this agent and like okay how could we get like a good uh discussion out of
16:54
recommendation to make sure this is like assessed and everybody kind of able to
17:00
cover different areas. So it came up with five positive and five negative questions. Um so let's play around um
17:09
see what it does and like go through discussions go a bit of like rounded let's see if like in five 10 minutes we
17:15
came to some kind of um like holistic understanding of this recommendation. So
17:20
the first question and if everybody can do their own. So that will be basically aggregating scores. Um but yeah we don't
17:28
have to if you don't uh like to play like the numbers game. Um but
17:34
essentially how many people or processes are affected. So in this kind of
17:39
incentive model um does anybody want to kind of like open up or like put up
17:47
their hands and in a row and we just go around and ask questions and and see
17:52
where everybody collectively lands on this. Um if I will start in that I would
17:59
ideate that um it doesn't really affect that many people um considering most of
18:04
like the ADA holders are more like um just like a passive stakeholders.
18:11
However, it is like very beneficial of course to the like entire community to
18:16
make this a lively blockchain and useful for like future generation to even adopt
18:22
this. So I think like the impact is like quite high. Um but yeah the fact
18:31
it has like a two dimension it. So I will say like four in this case.
18:37
Um because yeah who are those people who are going to be affected are those who
18:43
have trained education of doing workshops research documents and now
18:48
also this new age of where we are able to inference like AI
18:54
and but most of I don't know like how many Cardano holders are even into
19:00
Cardano because we are financing these things because all of these incentives probably
19:06
would come from treasury like it unless we are able to do some kind of business model with universities but they have
19:12
business with like regional grand funds and like horizons and these European
19:17
funds so it's hard to kind of penetrate that market in my opinion
19:25
um to such a specify like for the current stakeholders to have like huge
19:32
impact so this is kind of my thinking here does anybody also want to try to
19:37
share their thoughts on how much impact this recommendation can have.
19:42
Well, so just to uh put it a little bit uh in context uh and according to let's
19:48
say the research that we have done in in MG um we use reference from the OC they
19:56
are observers and one of um when they
20:02
are doing an observation uh on on governance elections in a nation they

Urgency of governance funding and concentration risks

20:09
first do uh um uh they assessed how uh much spending uh
20:17
how how well funded governance is uh on a high level. Um
20:24
and the reason for them doing that is because um uh
20:30
um if a governance model is not funded is not fair and equal uh for everyone to
20:37
uh participate um and is also not sustainable because
20:43
it is uh only our governance available for those of the few. So a DREP uh
20:50
compensation um that's I will say that perhaps is uh
20:56
onethird of the funding. Uh we also need the funding of CC members and uh SPOS's
21:02
as well. Um but um and I I also have se seen several uh
21:10
proposals. Um the latest one now that I have looked into um um is also um to set
21:19
up a state pool a fully seated uh state pool and have that to fund the both CCT reps and um
21:29
SPOS's if I'm not mistak who came up with that idea. So to have
21:39
um in my eyes to have a sustainable governance model it must be funded
21:47
uh underfunded governance model don't have any legit leg negativity and
21:54
it's not only by my opinion but also uh the OCE report
22:01
that as a comment now let's see but in terms
22:06
Is there a deadline or time pressure to have this TEP incentives?
22:12
And next on my list, oh, you jumped in. How would you answer that?
22:18
I just I just wanted to go a little bit back on what Caner said about having a
22:24
funded program and one major concern that I have um about the Europe and CC
22:31
compensation is that they are in a different layer than SPO compensation, right? So SPO comp compensation is at
22:37
the ledger level. So the protocol pays here we need to go and ask for funds and
22:43
then have a model and then evolve it and and such and such. So it depends and and
22:48
not many other steps. So ideally the model that we come up with will be able
22:54
to work at the protocol level as well. So it doesn't depend on politics
23:02
once in it is in place. I know
23:08
go to initiative maybe we want to play around a little bit but we need to have that clarity since the beginning that we
23:14
ultimately that's a goal I think absolutely uh that is the goal and I
23:20
have been talking with those uh um doing all the Haskell coding and akin
23:27
programming and yada yada and it's um it's a very very long road uh bringing
23:34
uh uh CC compensation and uh the Europe composation let's say fully on chain
23:42
even though if it was so we had like this idea also that uh
23:47
you can take a cut from the the deposit so our proposals like maintain 100k uh
23:54
deposit and then out of that you let's say for example just withdraw um 30,000
24:01
ADA and distribute it as a compensation model and you could use um a similar
24:06
model as VRF that where you have like um kind of a DREP lottery uh to get like a
24:12
good chunk but ledger wise that's going to take a long
24:18
time. I yeah I heard uh 3 years uh from let's say
24:23
research to um uh development uh MVP
24:32
nifty along testing and looking for exploit and you know game theory and all that stuff and um eventually a hard fork
24:40
perhaps uh um at three years that was like just um
24:48
fear guessing from technical knowhow with people.
24:53
Yeah. Does I'm not concerned that it takes that that long. It's just as we don't we don't because it takes so long.
25:00
We need not to get get our eyes off the ball on that one. Yeah. Yeah. And and and so uh table
25:09
asked about uh urgency. Uh so um here is my point of view. So uh we have a lot of
25:16
uh research uh on something called stake bleeding attack on um the consensus
25:23
mechanism on auto. It basically is um it works like this that you have um over
25:31
a long period of time you have uh stake pools who are co uh collaborating and
25:38
attracting more ADA more ADA or more ADA delegation. Um and this is why we had
25:45
the K parameter uh engaged and unfortunately we don't have a K parameter uh for governance uh on the
25:52
ERP and SPOS's and what the the attack vector if you're going to put it is a
25:58
long-term attack vector similar to stake bleeding and that is you have DREP and
26:04
SPOS's acquiring treasury withdrawals and gaining more and more and more and
26:10
more um uh voting hours. Um, and that is
26:15
uh from my assessment when we have such as you see in the visuals we have such
26:22
uh high nakamo motor coefficient uh and and uh yeah you can see it here. uh and
26:30
um it means is a very little amount of drefs uh that needs to generate a new
26:38
treasury with you know and for each treasury row this is just so at this point when we have a guinea coefficient
26:44
that is um not so well distributed that is like a plausible attack vector so I
26:51
think any form of dre compensation either it's a smart contract or even
26:56
though you had intersect I know we want to have it on the ledger and I also
27:03
really really appreciate the value of decentralization all that stuff but the
27:09
thing is you come to a point where is literally no point of return that goes
27:15
with stake attack and at a certain point you could you current now we have good
27:21
actors in the ecosystem but uh we don't we haven't built for bad actors
27:27
governance Yeah. Yeah. I think that that is the key factor. I think we are already past the
27:33
point of no return. The only difference is that we are in the hands of good actors. So there's a way back. But with
27:40
those numbers, there wouldn't be any way back. So we need to prepare for when the good guys are no longer around, which
27:47
will inevitably happen. Yeah. And for the record, so I'm not fing governance on Cardano. I love uh uh
27:55
governance on Kama uh but uh I also uh I want to highlight uh that like from
28:03
a report perspective how vulnerable we are let's say in the
28:09
first year and and it's not only governance for us also you can look at the track records uh on Dows uh which um
28:17
basically had the same type of vulnerabilities you have the big entities whales um rocking the boat and
28:24
doing the things and then voter participation goes down and then you you see the uh the value of the token goes
28:31
down and participation and literally you see so many Dows have literally died
28:38
literally died uh just because of uh a simple um thing as that um you acquire a
28:48
large amount of tokens on the um air drops and stuff like that it is. So
28:53
yeah. Yeah. So I I I I put this critique in passion and uh
28:59
so you would say is the urgency nine or 10? It is a 10 urgency. It's actually very
29:05
very urgent. Um going to physibility can this be

Feasibility, costs, and implementation tradeoffs

29:11
built with existing tools? I think here we have all the skills and tools. It's
29:17
just a coordination issue. Um so we don't we don't have the on ledger
29:24
tools we don't have that so on ledger it is not feasible to do now but we have
29:29
let's say bootstrapping mechanism we can have intersect distribute funds uh we
29:35
have smart contract compatibilities uh we can do stuff that on the card we
29:41
can put up let's saturate a stake pool with 75 million ADA that's mathematically basically the optimal
29:49
uh stake saturation that will generate XY Z ADA each epoch and you can
29:55
distribute that. Um I think in terms of visibility it's it's
30:02
not just um do we have all the tools but also it says it in the bottom too. Is it high or low effort? I believe it's
30:09
pretty high effort even though we have all the tools. Yeah. On ledger that's a high effort.
30:20
Okay. So what? So visibility is high but we mentioned
30:26
well I would say feasibility is pretty low because it's such high effort still
30:33
and while you at it can you also try to address um the cost estimate what resources would be needed in order to
30:41
lift this up? Um yeah, I I wouldn't feel qualified to
30:49
address how much money should or is enough should be or is enough. I um
30:58
I I think I mean I I I know or am aware
31:04
of most of you all and and I've interacted with I don't know I guess the majority
31:11
of people in here over six years and
31:17
I don't have time to do what I used to do in the Cardano community. Um, I spend
31:24
about 30 minutes to an hour each day looking through what's going on in the Cardano community on X and going to my
31:32
favorite Discord servers, but it's considerably less time on the Discord
31:37
servers cuz that's that's an overwhelming amount of information. And I
31:45
I agree with Kin Eric's feeling that this is kind of an urgent
31:52
thing. But I I I just I just have to stress to
31:57
you all that somebody like myself
32:03
who knows you all and knows many other people in the community but does not
32:08
have the time. I just don't have the time to sit in the X spaces
32:14
and I certainly don't have the time I wish I had to read the volumes of
32:20
material that are put out by this group and many other groups inside of the
32:25
governance efforts and I
32:31
I don't know how it will happen but I believe it is inevitable and extremely
32:39
necessary. for some collaboration to occur where it's
32:47
easy for even someone like myself to just get an overview of where these
32:52
efforts are occurring and how collaboration is happening, you
32:58
know, because it is it is just way too much information to
33:03
to take in with a regular for a regular person and and and I don't consider
33:10
myself a regular person, you know, like like I said, I' I've put six years into this ecosystem and know you guys and I
33:19
can't keep up with it. And you know, I
33:25
unfortunately lean on the perception that I have that right now we're mostly
33:33
governance is mostly being driven by good actors and the criticisms that that they have
33:41
to endure just in the act of being good actors and
33:47
being involved, you know, is is unholy. I I feel I have
33:53
a lot of empathy for the just the pure [ __ ] that people have to listen to,
33:59
you know, because of the the naysayers and the always
34:04
fingerpointing other members of the community, you know, because they're out there and I,
34:10
you know, I find it very tiresome. Um, at the same time, I think, you know,
34:17
everybody should be able to deal with this kind of criticism and have a way to respond. Uh but
34:26
that's that's really all I have to say is is that you know just you who are
34:31
active in these efforts which I applaud and and you know emotionally support you
34:38
know it's it's an incredible burden to to to sit here and think I need to keep
34:45
up because I I see no way possible and and I just
34:51
I think that that all of these efforts should be continued
34:56
and and I agree with Caner that this is urgent, but in the back of your minds, I
35:02
I really I really want to encourage everybody to think about ways to make it
35:08
possible to have an overview that's easily digestible. And I I you know, I have no idea how how that can be done,
35:16
but I just feel like it's very necessary. So, thanks for letting me speak.
35:24
Thank you for speaking up. Seomon, do you want to share your hand up?
35:30
Yeah, I just wanted to say I agree with that. I think it needs a professional effort, not just a bunch of community
35:36
members coming together and, you know, kind of figuring it out. And that's why
35:42
I think the cost estimate is, I mean, maybe not super expensive, but on the higher side.
35:52
eight. Although you could say it's super expensive, too, because once it's once it's implemented, it's going to need
35:59
some money in the long run as well, right? So, I'm not sure.
36:04
Yeah, I think the maintainability is going to be the so the the don or what
36:11
how the people say because yes once we get it up and there is anything
36:16
successful we probably want to repeat that but then we have also maybe a competition of who is going to take an
36:23
assess and we arguing about the operations and administration is going to be another layer so I think that may
36:30
become quite hard Um, and I if you like look at how states are doing, they're
36:38
all in depth. So, yeah, that's a that's a challenge that humanity hasn't solved
36:43
in my opinion. U Ryan, I was just going to mention that uh the
36:49
bottom of that paper, I did some charts that measure the difference between um different types of incentive models and
36:57
how effective they are with different size budgets. And there are some models that are actually quite cheap. uh you
37:02
just have to decide what you're measuring and then incentivize just those things with the minimum amount
37:07
necessary and you can get measurable out out uh effects with um as much as a
37:14
thousand ADA per proposal. If you do 100 proposals, that's 100k ADA up for the budget for a whole year. Um and that's
37:21
using the middle out method there. But there's other ones like if you're going to reward proportionally based on voting power, in order for that to be
37:26
effective, you have to reward a lot more ADA. It's going to be a lot more expensive to the treasury. Um, so
37:31
there's different ways of of getting of of getting value
37:36
out of your ADA to stretch it out farther uh that it doesn't have to be expensive to do incentives
37:41
or compensation. I mean
37:47
what does this chart tell us? So that chart is using a super super
37:53
tiny amount of budget that is giving 100 DREPs uh a total of 100 ADA. So, it's
37:58
one ADA per DREP every time they vote on a proposal. Um, so you can see it's very
38:04
spread out. It's because there's not very strong incentives. One ADA is not going to do much. That's why it's uh that heat map is kind of all over the
38:10
place. But if you scroll down to the next one, that one is giving every DRP 10 ADA. And suddenly it's a lot more
38:15
effective. And you can see that there's a hot spot there if you pay 200 ADA 200 dre
38:21
um out of that 100,000 ADA. So that would cost five ADA per DREP.
38:26
And then it goes up to 5,000 which would be I think 58 upd sorry that'd be 25 if
38:31
you're doing 200 D reps 50 if you're rewarding 100 and then all the way up to a thousand.
38:38
So the more you vote the more you earn and there is like a speed but somewhere. Yeah. It's it's basically showing that
38:45
you you're getting most of the effectiveness you want out of for these metrics at least out of just doing 5 to
38:52
10 ADA per DRP per proposal. you're already incentivizing decentralization at that point in participation, which
38:58
are the two things that I'm measuring here.
39:03
So, so then but then you're um assuming that we should incentivize based on how
39:09
often they vote, right? Um kind of. So, the way that it works in
39:15
this is if you don't vote, it passes on to the next person that does vote. So,
39:20
the top 100 DR represent vote will get paid. And if you if you don't vote, then
39:25
the next person will get paid. But it does remove the top 10, it's K in this model from eligibility. So if you see
39:31
the lefth hand side of these charts, it goes from 10 20 30 40 60. That's how many you exclude from the top. So you in
39:38
these in this model, you're not excl you're not rewarding the top gear reps at all. Um because they have influence
39:45
over they already have so much influence based on how much voting power they have. They can get through treasury withdrawals. They have other means of
39:50
compensation, right? They don't need to be compensated. they've already grown to be some of the most powerful D-Reps. So, this is explicitly incentivizing people
39:56
to be in that middle portion, the middle to top portion of you're an influential DREP, but you're not contributing to
40:02
concentration problems.
40:07
Oh, that's great. Great research. Thanks. I have to look into that. Mh.
40:14
Interesting. Nice. Well, it's taking a bit longer than I
40:19
thought when we are going through all of discussions, but why not? Let's let's have a full sweep and then we can also
40:25
have recommendation how to improve it for future iterations. Road map alignment aligns with Cardano
40:32
road map. Unfortunately, I still haven't looked at the recent like third past
40:37
vision. So has anybody read through has kind of cut into tune with what's on
40:44
info action and can tell if that recommendation how well it's aligned.
40:53
I assume it's like something that is there but not sure. I see Jose is saying yes
41:00
you're going the right direction going all the way up. Yeah, I can I can recall exactly the
41:07
text that is on the road map. So, I haven't I'm not ching on that, but I recall being somewhere around having a a
41:16
sustainable long-term um governance and this goes in that direction. So, I'd say
41:22
that it's definitely aligned. How quickly can the benefits be
41:28
realized? Years to realize, weeks? Yeah. I maybe have a radical here at two
41:35
meals like weeks like okay you want to start new workshops all get teams together let's okay next week let's meet
41:41
and let's start but or some we've already mentioned like leisure three years several years so where do we meet
41:49
or somewhere in middle I I think we had people speak to that it's going to be probably years right
42:00
let me go to one how much uncertainty in this approach. I think we have also
42:06
discussed that a bit and I guess it's like maximum uncertainty
42:13
because we don't know who gets the rewarded. We don't know how where it's coming from. It's just they all throwing
42:19
bunch of proposals currently at the omnibus style that intersect is doing.
42:24
Um yeah, but it says technical risk. What does that mean?
42:31
That is a good question. Um
42:36
going to why doesn't say that? I'm going to save it and see if
42:44
technically it's how complex or uncertain it doesn't stay here either.
42:50
Let's see if I have one more chance in on boarding page prioritize. I guess
42:56
technically uncertainty is a term we can Yeah, it does. Okay. Looks like with the
43:02
recent update I kind of lost the mathematical. Yeah. And also
43:08
we come up with ourselves consider dependencies, integration complexity and unknowns. So unknowns are the politics,
43:15
integration complexities of the ledger maybe and depends Cardano itself. So
43:22
easy five in my opinion. If we go to the you know if we aim to
43:30
have it on the ledger definitely FI if we aim to have a quick uh MVP I don't
43:39
think it's that complex really we we have several models but as I said before
43:44
I think we already have a model in place which is not paying um so anything that
43:49
improves on that is better and if if we I mean I see a lot of uh um a lot of
43:57
push from several groups and people u just coming together on on a solution
44:03
um shouldn't be that hard to get in place, you know, this year. So, I
44:08
wouldn't say that it's that uncertain. I don't I'm for sure it's not a one, but I'd say it's kind of in the middle of
44:14
the road. Four or three? Well, it's my one. If you
44:22
want to go lower, you have to use the application. I I would put a three. But uh but I I I
44:29
can see how others can think differently. Um final metric, legal risks. Do we have
44:37
concerns or it's going to be a problem?
44:43
I think it's a two. So it's not risk-free. It's very low.
44:50
And this is how assessment works right now for recommendations. If you got any
44:55
feedback, I created a feedback button. You can tell me anything. The best way you could I hope is you describe exact
45:04
change you want or that and then I can discuss with the agent and make any kind
45:10
of updates to platform or the way we kept information, add information, see information.
45:16
um for Steve this won't be able to yet show you the entire Cardano but over
45:22
time I hope that at least that what we collect here in workshops is uh visible
45:28
understood and as we have like new so many of these options now um 30 already
45:35
yeah thank you I think today 10 was already added um so yeah we'll see if we
45:41
can start combining these because I think they're going to be duplications Um

Closing reflections, next steps, and platform feedback

45:47
but for now where do we want to go next? If I refresh this is there anybody? Yeah
45:52
I see one person at least has gone through and prioritized more items here
45:59
and everybody is welcome to do all of this hoping and then set up for the next
46:05
workshop. As I understood tomorrow there's going to be in civics maybe uh
46:10
or was it MCC somewhere the inter incentive or like I don't know it's rep
46:15
incentive but in general governance incentive yeah group and then
46:22
Wednesday is going to be another MV workshop
46:27
and um yeah one more later to this week we have a workshop button at the top
46:33
there you will see the full plan uh it's not of course mandatory but if you have a very specific time you are
46:40
watching from YouTube and you're like damn it none of this works for me you can come on this chat and put your time
46:47
down and we can make sure that we don't miss anybody um
46:54
but yeah for today last five minutes I think let's have a closing thoughts here
47:00
rather feedback maybe um bring up some kind of recommendations
47:05
you I think needs to be there and so that when I look past the recording I
47:10
can make sure they are there. Um and yeah any any other closing thoughts
47:16
you think about governance and the way this workshop went.
47:26
Well, I think um I know there is very it's very easy to uprank thing also when
47:32
you are prioritizing uh but also uh take the effort to down prioritize things
47:39
that um you don't think is urgent and sometimes that is actually more
47:45
difficult than voting stuff up.
47:51
Yep. I see seven up and seven against and yeah today's discussion
47:57
yeah brought out report by lot of lot of quality stuff into this one
48:03
recommendation I hope we have now two recommendations that have been gone through in this kind of figure one was
48:09
something related to SPOS's now that was the workshop last workshop I know that
48:14
was the yeah non workshop just in another meeting so because somebody in
48:20
the last workshop suggested a recommendation about uh you know our
48:26
explorers have this um uh like
48:32
hey come here spend money and get earn points or like casino ads basically and
48:38
then there was a recommendation about subsidizing other SPOS or like rewards
48:43
or treasury to give them rewards so that don't have to run those ads in order to maintain their site so that it would be
48:51
more appealing for new people who are just opening up explorer because it's usually quite the first thing that
48:57
people look when they start like acting with tokens and they need to verify something. Did they do it correctly?
49:02
They to go to explore and they see only ads about how to spend money basically.
49:09
But if there would be there is this cause this SPO is working with these farmers or with these students or like
49:15
more curial thing that people actually care about it may change the shift. So
49:22
that whoever I think that was Oliver or Jen itself because she was here on Friday between that discussion it
49:29
happened. Um the pool has not talked yet. Mark call James Iomi Jen Men
49:38
do you want to share your thoughts on this workshop challenge government in general?
49:44
I didn't know we could upgrade or downgrade. So I'm gonna have to look at it now.
49:52
So I'll re re-evaluate. So thanks for that.
49:58
Yeah. Hey T. Hey everyone. Great great tool man. It's uh you put a lot of effort into it and uh it's
50:06
definitely going to be helpful. There's a lot in there. So I'm going to spend a few hours before
50:12
getting uh digging into each one. Um but yeah, it's a great tool. I'll add some
50:20
comments and bits on here and there's a bunch of stuff I imagine you've already talked about on previous sessions that
50:25
you put in here that I'll essentially familiarize myself with
50:31
and um one other question I've got or one question is could anyone submit these or
50:38
am I missing the submit button um or these come from if you're not logged in
50:44
um maybe that's an issue uh so on the right top
50:50
left corner there should be a way to login and you have three options Google account wallet or travel account and
50:57
each of them will give you a session key which then should give you access to submit stuff accepting challenges oh
51:04
actually never mind I think Molen today pushed me side so yeah you can actually assess our
51:11
challenges too if you think you want to okay yeah I've logged in that's great I
51:17
just couldn't see where to create a new prioritization item or whatever we're
51:22
calling them. Oh yeah. So these ones happen and I'm going to share screen again. Share
51:28
screen. So in identify page is where we write the recommendations and middle you
51:35
have these categories and at the end of the categories of existing stuff you have this add recommendation button.
51:42
Okay. Nice. I see. Yeah that's great.
51:47
And then yeah today we worked on this list where your recommendation will go in here and here we do the up ranking
51:55
and down ranking. Yeah, that's nice. I've been uh been
52:01
doing some up and down voting. Uh be great to get a few more people in there and there's only a couple at the minute.
52:08
And as well get the get the delegator incentives. I'd love to see some more up votes on that so we can have a
52:13
discussion about it. Just to plug that one, but not to sway anyone. Everyone's got their own ideas.
52:21
Thank you, James. Yeah, I just wanted to say thanks um
52:27
table. You're doing a great job facilitating um and I agree with what
52:33
Steve's saying like we need efficient ways to get the word out to people, but we also need better discourse.
52:40
And uh I'm a believer that the biggest problem with Cardano governance is [ __ ] Twitter. Um and so thanks for
52:47
providing an alternative to that. Um way to go. Keep it up.
52:54
Don't have Oh yeah emoji. Oh yeah, just one more clock. Uh Ken was pushing me on
53:02
AI agent. I don't know how created that's using CHBD but it's infused with some of our milestone data that is
53:09
probably not kept out so give it a go share something and if the answer sucks
53:15
you have option to give feedback and that feedback will then go back to the system and I try to make it more
53:23
convenient for us so if you have questions and you don't
53:28
want to bother me bother the system itself let's see where it goes
53:35
Okay, thanks for joining. But but but but we we really like that they they bother you to table, right?
53:43
Well, uh the whole point with the AI is to uh it's been if if we manage to do
53:49
this correctly, it's trained on all the beyond Bible data that is uh public
53:55
available and the research paper and you will probably get a little bit like
54:01
why and how um this is on on the road map for
54:06
consideration as improvements for governance.
54:14
Okay, thanks for joining everyone. Uh, thank
54:21
you for not uh, leaving me here with Deo and Kary. That would have been horrible.
54:29
Oh, thank you for making this happen. I think they're very valuable exercises and definitely we will be looking
54:35
forward to the next one. Try to join. See you then. Bye.
54:40
Yes. Next, next one is uh on the 22nd, guys. Two days from now.
54:48
Yeah. I will invite you all again as usual.
54:55
Bye. Yeah. Thanks again. Byebye.
55:00
Bye everyone.