---
workshop_number: 3
date: 2026-02-07
title: Beyond MVG Workshop -- Governance Experience Insights
video_url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xopq9rT-L9U
youtube_description: |
  Open governance workshop focused on lived experience of Cardano governance
  participants. The team walked through the Beyond MVG framework on Miro and
  ran three structured questions, each tied to a measurement metric:

  1. M1 -- % of ADA actively voting: What barriers, if any, have you
     encountered when trying to participate in Cardano governance? Surfaced
     issues included poor calendar / committee communication, unclear
     direction across MBO and sub-committees, very little material on how to
     become a DRep, time cost of being a DRep, fragmented information
     sources (mostly X), and lack of consolidated tooling.

  2. Stickiness of ADA-holder -> DRep delegation: What factors cause ADA
     owners to change their DRep delegation? Themes included DRep voting
     behaviour, news / events, lack of standardisation across the ~11
     Cardano wallets (Lace still has no governance UI), poor onboarding,
     popularity-contest delegation flows, and the ~5% of total ADA actually
     voting (out of ~38B circulating).

  3. M -- % of DRep votes with published rationale: What challenges do DReps
     and CC members face when publishing rationales? Themes: solo-voter
     DReps not bothering with rationales, SPO operators inheriting
     pre-existing delegator bases, conflict of interest when DReps are also
     treasury applicants, fear of losing delegation, hostile social
     reactions on X (e.g. SNEK vote), expensive Discord tooling
     (CNFT-tools, Clarity at $75/mo) being out of reach for smaller pools,
     and the desire for a single rationale -> social-media graphic flow.

  The session also discussed milestone timing (data milestone end of
  February, final synthesis report in June), Essential Cardano monthly
  blogs, and asynchronous participation through the surveys and the Beyond
  MVG GPT linked from the Beyond MVG link tree.
attendees:
  - Tevo Kask (host)
  - Danielle
  - Ken Erik
  - Kathy
  - James
  - Shaggy
  - Lucas
  - Marina
  - Ben
---

# Workshop #3 Transcript -- Governance Experience Insights

## Transcript

0:01
Hey uh what's what's the agenda for for today?
0:07
So in beyond MVG right now we are in a stage where we are basically aggregating
0:13
insights uh towards the governance framework uh PDF that has been
0:18
[clears throat] shared. I can drop a link to the document itself and there
0:24
are basically few uh few stakeholders like other holders,
0:30
TPS, SPLC's and we have derived like questions based on that and using like
0:37
previous open governance sessions as an like info material to to to really like
0:44
go deeper into these metrics themselves and how they affect and what affects and what experience people have and
0:52
they're like aligning into that specific conscient measurement
0:57
and then we analyze like think about how strongly they affect it. We probably
1:04
have another workshop after we have like taken these scalers of how like these
1:10
insights that people are bringing up how they affect the specific governance [clears throat] metric
1:16
and from there once we like finalized and and had [clears throat] the community sentiment also on the on the
1:23
dependencies and the the strengths of all of these factors that change the measurements. we
1:30
will have better insight of what problems we want to solve and like yeah
1:36
we basically reference this reporting to build tools and and like start programs that
1:43
help to like use these metrics as like underlying source of how how do we
1:50
change the way we what we want to see on chain for example if we want more decentraliz
1:57
we we have different dependencies on that there is a need for that and you
2:02
can kind of reference this model will be collect collecting here
2:07
and yeah so I kind of got it did you guys pull any any any
2:14
reference material from the day zero that happened in Vegas last rare Evo I
2:20
mean there's quite a bit that was discussed there having to do with the governance a lot of it surrounded the
2:26
executive function uh but there's quite a few other things that were coming up, problem statements, things of that
2:31
nature that uh that were also a part of that. So, I'm just curious is if you pulled in that data from that uh before
2:39
you uh compiled this or Yes. was it included also wants to share.
2:47
Yeah. So, I can just uh add on to that uh two things. uh that document have
2:53
been part of let's say setting up the framework uh or how we
3:01
um are doing this and I also want to add to what table says uh we're also going
3:06
to compare this to traditional governance what are the let's say
3:12
expected values and um value chains and compare it to uh corona governance and
3:19
also see how Dows have done it in the past. So
3:25
we are benchmarking Cardono and some of that part comes with feedback from you
3:31
guys. Got it. And were they because I took one
3:36
of the two two of the surveys I believe uh and they were overall they were
3:42
decent surveys. um was the surveys derived uh from those discussions as well as
3:49
where to focus as far as DREPs, SPOS, CC members, things like that.
3:57
Yeah, I think the the workshops also um we're combining it into
4:04
like we're collecting more data now and we'll combine that with those workshops to come up with the final sort of
4:10
synthesis of what do we think the data is telling us. So we're still trying to
4:15
kind of broaden our data gathering and those workshops also the workshops
4:21
that were run on governance uh similar to rear we did those in Japan. So those are all feeding into the final analysis
4:30
but we also tried not to um not to let that be the only way to lead where we
4:36
were having discussions because those workshops are just a small subset. It was a really like powerful DR
4:43
concentration in those, but we're trying to also get other stakeholders input too.
4:48
Makes total sense. Uh that's awesome. Um forgive my ignorance. Uh the what's the
4:54
timeline uh where you guys are going to deliver on this stuff? What where do you anticipate how long is it going to be
5:00
before we we see any uh result come out of all this the work that you guys are doing?
5:05
Yeah. So our first milestone we drafted how do we think we should measure governance and um that is already
5:13
submitted and so you can go to the Cardano treasury dashboard that intersect has and find that the next
5:19
milestone we're going to share this is all the data we gathered that's end of February and then our sort of final
5:25
report that's going to pull together this is what we think it all means is in
5:30
June so we'll have one milestone in between then that's more just intermediate analysis is of here's our
5:37
preliminary analysis and then the very end is June.
5:42
Got it. So, so the idea is it's from milestones reports you're going to get those that way. Are you going to disseminate in a different way to the
5:48
public um to the regular ADA holder um outside of that and in maybe a different
5:54
way almost like you're marketing a little bit uh promoting it a little bit? I'm just curious on that end because
6:00
those are great and it's more professional. You know, you're in there and like you're in a office somewhere,
6:06
but you know, public would be maybe worded a little differently, let's say.
6:12
Yeah. Um, essential Cardano, we're giving the project monthly updates. So,
6:18
that's kind of a blog format where we're summarizing what we've done and linking just to the deliverables themselves. So,
6:23
if someone wants to read the measurements report, they go and read it. Um, so that's the place we're doing it. And Marina has put together a good
6:31
link tree just of all the things to keep up to date with on the project.
6:37
Yeah, that link tree is super helpful. Uh, and she she did a really great job with that. There's no question because
6:43
I've got everything I need right there, no matter what it is. Uh, when I have time to actually get involved and be a
6:48
little bit more a part of that. I have one more question full of questions, right? Uh the I'm
6:54
part of product committee and so we did the vision workshops and they were both
7:00
remote and also live. Um the remote workshops were great because we had a
7:05
mural board. There's a bunch of questions at the top for discussion and then from there everybody put in their
7:12
particular input, you know, just grabbed a sticky note and and then we collated all that and had a progression from
7:17
start to finish and and it kind of all worked together. Did any of you happen to participate in that at all?
7:26
Oh, not in there. Okay. Um, on the latest one, I'm I'm not trying to like influence how
7:34
you would do this, but in my six years of being here, almost seven years now of
7:40
being here, this was probably the most detailed uh and organized uh workshop
7:47
I've ever been a part of. And the amount of data we uh gleaned from that from the product committee uh was absolutely huge
7:54
and it progressed organically over each workshop because as we collected data
7:59
the intent and the questions at the top the topics at the top would actually change a little bit based on the data
8:06
that we got from the previous workshop. And so, uh, Lorenzo was huge with this and he did such an amazing job, him and
8:13
Juan really, uh, for the most part. Um, and it might be something to look at as a template, uh, to potentially produce
8:20
because I to this date have not seen anything remotely as good at that, as good as what we went through with that.
8:29
Maybe today we can go with that idea. I'm going to share screen and I'm going to also link to the Mario. So there are
8:37
already some of the elements that we done from the previous workshop and so we're going to use a similarity like
8:44
similar like like process as we did last time just different questions
8:52
uh and maybe that aligns with what you're thinking in terms of like uh
8:58
doing some awesome activities on Marboard and then using that as a source material to build collective knowledge.
9:12
Uh, this is more of like a flow for doing the workshops. The one I'm talking about was [clears throat] something that was a
9:17
template that was actually for interactivity during the workshop instead. Um, so
9:24
you mean you mean like we had a questions and we answered them and we all take stickies, right? Yeah.
9:29
Yeah. Basically you started with the first question what what we are here about and this is the diagram is more
9:36
like presenting that and for the I don't know for the recording sake were do we have anybody
9:42
new who uh joined a bit later and wants to have a bit of a background what beyond MVG does and
9:50
what we do today or other ways I can quickly describe [clears throat] the the
9:55
interactive points and just skip all the workshop information and just go with
10:01
the actual worship itself. Any thoughts, sir?
10:08
Yes, cafe. Yes, I wasn't there at the last
10:13
workshop, but um so I think I can keep up anyways because uh Ker gave me a
10:19
quite good rundown on how it went. So I think I can keep up. I'll just ask
10:25
questions instead. I think that's better. If I'm the only one that's new here, that's I don't want to waste time
10:30
on taking the run down. I will then to reference what we will be
10:37
seeing here, but I will then not go deeper into like details. Um um and Ben,
10:43
are you also okay with that if I just give a like a few minute intro without going into details of uh how we operate
10:50
and what we do here? Yeah. Okay. Then let's go with this blog. Um
10:58
welcome to this uh session beyond MVG workshop where we are trying to bring
11:03
forth effective governance in the way we're doing governance and in order to
11:10
do that we're looking for evidence packed uh information and insights and these workshops are one ways to do it on
11:17
them the link tree you also find the surveys and we also are doing interviews
11:23
with the specific individuals to enrich the background information and in order
11:29
to have like qualitative information to to measure Cardano government's framework we already started the
11:36
framework itself and on the link link tree you will find all the necessary
11:41
links the manual the report itself and a bit of report time outline of how our
11:46
project is um delivering on that stuff and behind all of these informations you
11:52
will find all kinds of like the way we are doing workshop the framework itself and that gives all the context of uh
11:59
what we do in this operations itself and as a project as a whole and last time we
12:05
met in Tuesday and with the same focus we had about seven questions and at the
12:11
opening we're just going to go around share a bit of what stakeholders we are like are we SPO V or just a regular data
12:18
holder and once we kind of have a understanding who who are in here in
12:24
this call we will choose a question and basically start answering on that and
12:29
and have a few minutes of like bringing up sticky notes and then we open up to
12:34
like 10 to 15 minute discussions going over the sticky notes we have done and if you have a bit of time we can also
12:42
organize similar sticky notes into the same place and then we move to another session and after the session we will be
12:49
aggregating this information on the survey and then turn it into like analysis in later stage.
12:56
and which will be then reported on any questions of today's workshop
13:03
going into this array of like here on [clears throat] the left side um welcoming and gender I have different
13:09
color codes for different roles so you can bring this sticky up and you can
13:15
mention your your name you can also add additional information if you want to give your like contact address or
13:21
describe what you do in general but essentially what what we're looking right now is uh what any of these all
13:29
like roles you embody in Gardana governance and something if it's not mentioned you can also um put as another
13:37
and explain what is that last time what we did was uh the least
13:45
uh members we have uh colors we have based on that we choose a question um
13:55
But I think today's uh workshop we could go in sequence and and starting with
14:01
participation and governance. Yeah, let's um move into the question
14:08
area. This is these are all on the left side. If you want to also navigate yourself on the motherboard, then
14:13
clicking on these small aron buttons will open up like a full screen. Um

### What barriers, if any, have you encountered when trying to participate in Cardano governance?

14:19
and first question will be what barriers if any have you encountered when trying to participate in Cardano governance
14:27
and this is associating with the metric MM1. So in the framework you will find like uh they are in sequence these
14:34
metrics. Um and the metric itself is percent of ADA actively voting. So the
14:41
you think of this uh number of percentage and that you will see on the
14:46
dashboard and on this bigger white dots is like more context uh for this measure itself.
14:54
Participation is a prerequisite for legitimacy in traditional democratic systems. Voter turnout is a core
15:01
indicator of governance health. Cardano adopts the principles to a blockchain contracts through its state weighted
15:06
governance model where influence is a proportional to the amount of ADA owned upstain votes excluded
15:14
I can see it as they are explicitly treated as nonparticipation under CIP
15:19
1694 and we do have also have a pro question which we can later discuss but right now
15:26
uh everybody can pick whatever color sticky notes you want and Now the color
15:33
doesn't matter and just simply answer what parriers if any have you encountered when trying to participate
15:39
in Cardano governance where
15:47
I guess let's take about like four minutes and on the top of 30 we
15:55
will I will can raise hands go around the room and uh
16:01
share a bit more detail of our thoughts
16:07
and if you have any questions you can also ask right now or put in a chat.
16:12
Yeah and just a reminder I will move sticky note I I'll use the mirror board if someone can't. So put your comments
16:20
in the chat if mirror doesn't work for you or you can't get to it or you prefer not to use it and we'll get you
16:25
captured. Okay, we have 30 minutes in and we have
16:32
a few sticks. At the moment, I will allow anybody who wants to speak of their stick out to
16:39
simply raise a hand and we go from that direction. Um, if nobody wants to open
16:45
up, I will then start a round table and just call people up or choose a sticky
16:50
and we wait for to pick it up. Hey James,
16:56
please go ahead. Yeah, I think uh one of the most glaring ones in the beginning was uh especially
17:02
organization and communication amongst the committee members which included the budget uh committee uh the board uh the
17:11
ISC uh and how that information was being delivered. Also, um the organization of
17:18
just just an easy one to to pick at and it's not anybody's fault was the calendar, for example, uh where you come
17:25
in and you'd be able to see the calendar and then from there that had not been updated. And so I put all those things
17:30
into my calendar and then I show up and and no one no one told me or sent me the memo that had been changed. And so that
17:37
information is probably one of the easier ones to pick at um and is probably one of the easier ones to
17:43
manage or take care of which then directs everybody to the committee that they want to sit and and watch or you
17:50
know if they're not part of a voting member let's say for example. Um so uh
17:56
that was the first one and the other one is um the and one of the things that
18:02
product committee is working on now is the lack of clear direction in which way we're going and how to get there. what's
18:08
most important, you know, within the ecosystem right now and what is glaring at us and stating, hey, how long do you
18:15
think you're going to stay in the top 10 as far as a blockchain goes, you know, and um for some does that matter, you
18:21
know, and and so who am I who am I talking to and why what's most important
18:26
for them maybe totally different than what's most important for me. So, um,
18:32
that's probably the other thing I think that seemed to be a thread amongst any of the committees that I've sat in on.
18:39
Um, that everybody's got a different idea of what's most important or the KPI they want to hit, you know, and so
18:46
do you think this is a problem in a sense that each committee has their own target audience or you feel like none of
18:53
them have very clearly brought it out? I think each one of them uh complement
18:59
each other. Uh so obviously they have the MBO which is the umbrella and the administrative portion of it and is
19:06
there a direct participant in each committee that is a paid participant
19:11
that's organizing and administrating the entire thing for each meeting and ensuring all you know notes, ideas,
19:17
everything is captured for week to week. Um that's something that it seemed
19:23
like it wasn't everywhere, not everybody was doing it. Um and that's changed over
19:28
a period of time. Um but the committees themselves all dubtail to each other at
19:34
some point some point some form or fashion. Um and what is that exactly? You know that each one complements each
19:40
other you know on um and are they doing double work you know so are we communicating that and then making sure
19:47
that the other committees know that hey we're already doing this there's no need to be able to double that work you know.
19:52
So what's your respon responsibilities or roles within these committees? I think we're still defining that but it's
19:58
starting to come together a little bit more but there needs to be a lot more of that happening.
20:03
Yeah. So as a DREP I just want to highlight that there is actually very little information on how to become a
20:10
DREP. I uh did a Google search search how to become a Cardano Dreppp and
20:16
basically that's is Crypto Crow and uh and learn Cardano is the only two uh
20:24
YouTube video and top ranking there is a guide to register as a DRIP on Samsung.
20:30
uh so I think um that is a barrier and the second one is
20:36
is very time consuming to uh be a DREP
20:42
and and uh be sure that you are taking the
20:48
correct judgment based on the available facts and those facts and information
20:54
you need to make a decision is literally spread all over the EOS system and
21:00
basically depend on which person you follow on X by my opinion and yeah
21:09
on the blue ones I see Danielle is bringing some notes from the
21:17
chat cost regression deposit action submission uh does it lack of tooling or
21:26
other are you listing all the different things maybe Shag you could share a bit more about this post of stuff. Uh how do
21:35
you think it affects negatively and where it affects positively? Do you think it has both strong and good
21:42
arguments and and just wondering in what stance
21:48
you are on are the are the cost is high or is it too low or what you thinking here? If Shaggy you can talk.
21:56
Milish, I think you're not picking up your mic, so I'm going to hand it for the James for now.
22:02
I was just going to jump on what Ken was talking about there and and the fact that uh you know who is responsible for
22:09
at least ensuring that the people who are developing like tempo for example it
22:15
uh ecclesia um who's responsible for
22:21
pollating that information making sure that it gets out to a wider audience also maybe talking to those teams
22:27
specifically about you know some of maybe the shortfalls they have or you highlighting some of the things that one
22:33
particular platform does well to the other ones that are doing it right and start to you know create some sense of
22:40
communication there. We're not standardizing so everybody is the same. you know, it's not the same chocolate chip cookie, but you know, we want
22:47
different ones obviously, but um you know, what type of information? I've heard this over and over again that
22:52
there isn't enough information having to do with, let's say, for example, the Treasury withdrawals. You know, we have Sunday FI uh uh what they're doing, and
23:01
it's decent enough, you know, but it might not be um informative enough.
23:06
There's not enough information in there as far as what are the milestones for each one of these Treasury withdrawals. Are they supposed to be public? Are they
23:12
supposed to be private? you know, uh, if they're not supposed to be private, why aren't they listed anywhere, you know,
23:18
and and where is that information if it is listed, right? Because someone would say, "Oh, it's over here in this GitHub." Like, good luck for a regular
23:24
end user that's going to try and find something. I re I I do not and myself, even though I have to use GitHub, do not
23:31
really find it um intuitive in any way to meet the way I think, right? So, there's a lot of end users like myself
23:37
that think the same way. And so, you need to be able to have that. So, you know, there there is definitely a uh a
23:43
gap between where we're at, where we should be at.
23:52
Mhm. Took some notes. We do see some
23:59
duplicates here and maybe future we want to cook them, but for now, I think we
24:06
sufficiently covered a bit of this information. Um I would move to the next question and if everybody's okay with
24:14
that or if somebody wants to add something or we mention highlight something or find a note that should be
24:20
discussed a bit further and feel free to raise your hand to Petra.
24:27
Hey guys um sorry I'm on the car. Um Lucas here um so I just wanted to
24:32
respond in terms of who's organizing um governance tooling builders. uh while I
24:38
was in the open source committee although it wasn't core to what they were doing I took initiative in reaching
24:46
out DMing the maker of the number of tools that were out there at the time this was like I don't know seven months
24:52
ago or a year almost and there's still a channel in the intersect discord called
24:58
governance tooling builder so it's not golf tools it's a channel for all the governance tooling builders there's a
25:03
link there to a myro board that I facilitated where we got to have at least one call with a number of them.
25:10
They were like you were discussing um exchanging ideas about what each tool
25:16
does, right? And my goal was to facilitate um crosspollinating between
25:21
the tooling builders. Unfortunately, uh the committee didn't really support that much and um I eventually ended my
25:29
mandate and now I'm doing it outside of uh Intersect. But uh it's really just something that I didn't really feel um
25:37
you know much space to do in there. But I agree that that that should be coordinated. Um also just to add from my
25:43
side the the main blocker I agree is uh
25:48
user experience let's say overall whether it's for the formal actions in
25:54
terms of apps whether it's for public debate and uh tooling for that.
26:00
Thanks everyone.
26:09
Okay, I will now move to the next question

### What factors do you think cause ADA owners to change their DRep delegation?

26:16
delegation. So also in even if there are now
26:22
duplicate of insights recognize you can put them down. Um so here the question
26:28
is what factors do you think cause ADA owners to change their DAP delegation
26:35
and so basically we are the measure itself is stickiness of ADA holder to DAP delegation
26:41
and liquid delegation is a core accountability mechanism in [clears throat] Gardana's governance model unlike fixedterm representation
26:48
other holders may reassign their voting power at any time allowing representatives to be continuously
26:54
evaluated the metric assesses how actively are the holders exercise that right by tracking changes in delegation
27:02
over time. So yeah here we are like collecting the change mechanics. So in in the
27:08
dashboard we will see like uh like okay some dups have like 20% stickiness and
27:15
some probably less. I don't actually I haven't visualized what that could look like maybe can mention but now we're
27:22
looking like these weight points of what may cause of that and if you are like finding good ways
27:29
like okay this is some of the are [clears throat] like highly likely this is the cause of that we maybe can think
27:35
of tools or uh programs on top of that to to change the framework um which is
27:43
comes at later stage so for now we are thinking all of these leverage moments
27:50
which we should be measuring and if the question itself doesn't help
27:57
then the probing question could be how can D reps better maintain the trust and engagement of their delegators.
28:04
So [clears throat] if you are delegating yourself or you will thinking to delegate what would you be looking for?
28:15
Can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you. Yeah, perfect. Um, I was just saying uh
28:21
well, first of all, hello everyone. Um I'm not a drep so I can't speak to their
28:27
experience but from some of the things I'm seeing on the board um I would have
28:33
said what I think might influence people's decision would be what uh
28:38
activity is happening within the community any sort of news um or maybe a
28:44
dereppp voting or something that people don't necessarily agree with or align
28:50
with um those would have been the The first immediate thought factors that I would think would influence why people
28:56
change their direct their location.
29:03
That's my two pennies. And what kind of news maybe you can
29:08
clarify is it like somebody did something horrible news or just like hey
29:14
this event is now going to happen it cost 50 million they are doing it. Is
29:19
that [clears throat] like a news that will trigger a change like oh why this happened who voted no yes and then
29:26
or or yeah I would say this is an area of
29:32
blockchain um governance that I'm very much still new to and learning. So participating in workshops like this is
29:39
very much educational for me at this point. So um my my input might be quite
29:45
limited in that in that respect but I would imagine if we're talking about
29:52
something happening on the network or introducing um an upgrade that may impact the way core functions or values
30:00
or against the constitution for example as we may have seen recently um that
30:05
could impact why um if I was an ADA owner um why I might change my direct
30:11
direct delegation. So things like that is new. What I mean by news?
30:22
Yeah, I want just to chime in. There's a question here. I would love to see measure data on this and I can confirm
30:29
uh we are going to measure and public publish um
30:35
um how ADA holders uh change their delegation.
30:41
Okay. The thing is that we we can actually measure this, but this is a rhetorical question that needs some
30:49
debate because what factors do you think cause uh ADA owners to change their
30:54
direct delegation and and honestly being an ADA holder myself and
31:00
a technical uh IT engineer I quite understand everything behind this but
31:06
even for me it's really really difficult to get to know uh the governance and I
31:11
have been doing this for 6 months plus now and it's still difficult to get a
31:17
hold of everything. It's difficult to know where things are. It's difficult to know how my DREP votes. It's difficult
31:23
to pay attention on X because there's so many things and we don't have a standardization for how to communicate
31:30
with people and we don't have a one package to to pack this in for um for
31:37
user yeah for make making it easier for users. So it's really really difficult
31:45
and even though I'm an engineer and I know how to do this, I would not be able
31:50
to change my DRAP if I didn't have someone helping me. So if I can't do it
31:57
being an IT engineer, how the hell are we supposed to make ADA holders do it?
32:05
I mean, this is not user friendly at all. And there's been a lot of engineers and
32:10
a lot of brilliant smart people building on Kadano. But we are building this for
32:16
IT engineers. We are building this for finance people. We're forgetting that normal users cannot take part of this
32:25
great governance that can be so so good for democracy and still we just
32:32
shut people up. So I think that this is something that we need to
32:38
to think about and it's kind of the core of the problem. I think that's that's my
32:45
opinion on it. It would be so great to see some data because then it would back
32:50
back back up what I think or just completely destroy what I think and that
32:56
would be interesting as well because measuring this will give us the precise
33:01
data and and background that we need to actually know.
33:07
[clears throat] Yeah. One of my dreams or hopes that after this workshops that we will find
33:13
is that oh lack of onboarding. So what we need we even if there are onboarding sites but we're not aware we are able at
33:19
this aggregate and then in the report we can say okay to school who had finding trouble who to do something or how to
33:26
understand governance here are the the links that you can show through and maybe people find their initiative like
33:32
even with the cover tools program itself I felt like why are we not aggregating all the different cover tools we have
33:39
now under this huge cover tool like the intersect ones and somehow it never came that they were like making aggregation
33:45
of list and linking to a clay. It was always some ad hoc thing that through a China actually this voting happens now
33:53
that um yeah and also we have these we have these tools but they're not standardiz
34:00
there's no standardization for it. So the onboarding is lacking and it's random because it all depends on who and
34:07
and what and how you get information and this there's no standardization for the
34:12
tools and and the the tools that we make. So adapt will
34:19
measure one thing and some other tool will measure something else. So
34:26
without standardization and without um a proper onboarding and when it's randomized like this it will be just
34:34
totally random how how you enter. Mhm. Great James.
34:45
Yeah. First I think a comment on the the one part if you go into an internal wallet or into the lace wallet. Lace
34:53
wallet actually is not ready yet. Um but then there's the yoy wallet. The yoy
34:58
wallet actually makes it extremely easy to be able to delegate and thus they have over 600 billion in total delegated
35:07
ADA to them um via their particular wallet. Eternal on the other hand has about 250 billion uh in total delegated
35:15
data. And so there are ways to easily change your your uh DREF delegation. Um
35:20
I was looking into this just to simply create a QR code or something that could be a part of this slide that I've made
35:27
in order to be able to change your delegation and use my DREP ID and switch over to it by just going into your
35:33
internal wallet or to the Roy wallet even and changing your your uh delegate delegation. Um so but it I'm doing that
35:41
on my own. If there was a standardization that was made in order to make sure that um you're not telling
35:47
people what to do that are building these apps, you're letting them know that this would probably be a good idea uh to have as far as a standardization
35:53
to make it easier for everybody that's currently looking to delegate or doesn't even know about delegation bre and might
35:59
need a small little snippet of what it means and then from there delegate their their ADA knowing that they're not
36:05
giving their ADA away which might be something people would be concerned about. Um so at least from that point of
36:11
view there is ways to do it. It is somewhat easy but you need to know where
36:16
to go in order to be able to do that. Um so um from the things that I mentioned
36:26
um there's a as far as who would lose delegation why why would people move around there's a lack if there's a lack
36:32
of consistent activity from the DREP for those of us who are in here um that
36:37
delegated you will see that and then from there you'll you'll look at and go um I think I'm going to move my
36:43
delegation right or you know let's say they made some sort of crazy statement on X and you decided Yeah, that really
36:49
doesn't vibe with who I am as a person and what I I feel like they should be how they should be voting based on their
36:55
particular opinion on things. And so they'll jump from there. Um the other side of that is just feels like it's
37:00
completely random as to people moving around because it's a popularity contest. people see that somebody has
37:06
done really well or they've just got a delegation like I edited or something like that and then people just jump over because they feel like oh that person
37:13
must be important because they just got you know the delegation or something from CF or whatever the case may be you
37:19
know so there's that particular part part of it as well um I did create one
37:25
um that I feel like maybe a question could be added um there's something that I've been thinking about having to do
37:31
with DREPs and how to engage data holders from outside the Xbubble Um which means that you know currently
37:37
right now we're at 14.24 billion in total DREP stake excluded is 8.75
37:42
billion which means we're right around 5 uh of total delegated ADA that gets
37:49
voted on a regular basis if it was 100%. That's really small compared to what's
37:55
totally available out in the market. there's 38 billion I believe totally um
38:01
circulating in in the supply um out of that some of that is excluded obviously
38:06
so I think there's around 17 billion approximately that's out there that you could go get um and uh how are we
38:13
helping DREPs in order to be able to do that because some of the smaller ones could benefit greatly from that you know
38:19
um so you know that's something I think should be addressed and it could help the smaller DREPs uh get more delegation
38:27
potentially. Uh, can I just ask you a question, James, because you probably know this.
38:33
How many wallets are there that supports ADA?
38:41
That support ADA? Yeah. How many can I use to to hold my ADA?
38:47
You're probably I'm off the top of my head, I'm thinking about seven potentially um that would get used on a
38:52
regular basis. There's Begin Wallet, there's Tokyo, there's um there's u oh
38:58
gosh, Eternal, there's Yoy, there's Lace. Um I mean there's quite a
39:05
few wallets. 11. Oh, thank you Kar. So each person, even being an engineer,
39:13
I have 11 wallets to choose from. Each wallet will give me a different way
39:18
to delegate my Drap. Yeah. Not and not all will be doing not all do it yet. So lace actually
39:25
doesn't even offer it. I can't go in there and actually delegate. There is no governance selection there yet for lace you know. So no standardization that will give me
39:32
this opportunity as na holder even but I think this is also another
39:38
thinking of how we because I don't want to think think that wallet has to have
39:44
these governance options right agree with you. wallet like wallet is
39:49
just one way to connect and some tools are like sophisticated wallets some want
39:54
to be very precise and like do the things it's used to do so I think what we need to this is like the on boarding
40:01
to governance understanding like there is a huge program and you can interact with it now what are the tools to
40:07
interact with it other platforms and maybe directing people do that thinking of all
40:15
I mean everyone in in this workshop relates to in one way or the other every
40:21
day ISO standards but that ISO standard doesn't tell you
40:27
how to build something so there's two issues one is is like how
40:33
do you get people to actually delegate their ADA um you incentivize them you know so how do you do that um and then
40:40
the other part of that is is that you can create standards but you can't tell anybody what to do in Cardano and how to operate their DAP because we're in a
40:45
decentral ized network. So it has to come as a suggestion. uh and then from there it it just makes it to where if
40:52
those who are following the standard that uh let's say you know intersect produces um then or this particular
40:59
committee produces even um then those people actually benefit and they see a
41:04
larger uh delegation or in percentage amount of ADA holders that are delegating their ADA then uh other other
41:13
wallets will follow just simply because they want to get a piece of that as well you know So you need to be able to prove
41:20
out the idea that that standardization would work. Uh that's attractive and it actually generates more interest. Um if
41:27
you then gify it a little bit and add a little bit of incentive to that, you know, um versus what Uroy did, which
41:34
basically just told people a lie and basically told them you in order to get your reward, you need to do this and
41:40
then they would just click the box and and delegate to the UROY wallet, right? Um, so you don't actually need to do
41:46
that, you know, um, to make that happen. So, um, yeah, I I think Kathy, you worked your
41:53
work's cut up for you a little bit, but you can't create a standardization, but it needs to be attractive and if it is
41:59
attractive, others will literally just adopt it because we all follow the leader here. Yeah. So,
42:08
well, so far we are 1 hour into the call. We have gone through two
42:13
questions. I wonder how is the energy of this room? Do we want to take another
42:18
question um or we want to do a closing? Give me a reaction if you want to
42:24
continue and if I get at least one then I'm going to [clears throat] Okay, we got B and some
42:32
are spamming the same people. Same people. It doesn't count. Okay, let's then get to the next
42:39
question. Uh we have two options there. Let's make a choice. Do we want to go through active DEX? What do you think
42:45
encourages or discourages people from becoming active D reps? You already touched a bit on that. And another one
42:51
is what challenges do DREPs and CC members face when publishing rationals. Maybe let's take a rational that give us
42:59
a maybe a new thinking uh term. Okay. Then moving into this section.

### What challenges do DReps and CC members face when publishing rationales for their votes?

43:08
What challenges do dre and CC members face when publishing ration to for their
43:13
votes? It relates to the percent of votes with published rationale.
43:19
Uh so you have basically maybe 50 20 maybe Ken knows already some kind of
43:24
numbers for that and the background context is transparent governance requires the representatives not only to
43:31
vote but also explain their decision. In Cardano's governance model, Dres are expected to provide rationals that make
43:38
their voting behavior understandable and open to scrutiny by ADA holders and
43:43
proposers. This metric evaluates how consistently that expectation is met by
43:48
measuring the share of D votes accompanied by published rationale. The metric reflects governance best
43:54
practices as inforced by SIP 900 and Gardana constitution.
44:02
So what challenges dos and CC members face when publishing rationals for their
44:08
votes? And even if you have been dup yourself then have you thought of any
44:14
dangers or or being hit by something
44:20
you didn't expect when writing rationals or when not writing rationals because
44:26
maybe one thing can only tell us. We don't even know what happens with our
44:31
rationals. All right, let's give it another round.
44:41
Does anybody want to open it up or I go with another person who has not yet spoken?
44:48
Yes, Danielle. I'll start because I like adding this view of being a derup who doesn't
44:54
represent other people. So with Cardono governance, you have to become a derup
44:59
even if you're not representing somebody else. If you're just representing yourself and want to vote, which is what
45:06
I do and in that role, um, and I don't know how many people we have like that
45:12
versus how many people are DREPs with others delegated to them. So that split
45:17
might actually be an interesting thing if if we can observe that. Um, but as one of those voters just for my own
45:24
behalf, sometimes I just get lazy. Honestly, I've taken the effort to vote. I've put my opinion, but since I'm not
45:30
representing anybody else, I just don't bother with a rationale unless I feel more strongly that I want to provide
45:38
constructive feedback on the proposal or help others think of a different perspective they may not be aware of.
45:44
So, I'm quite inconsistent with my ration for that reason.
45:51
Yeah. And and just a little bit of background um from my perspective, it
45:57
the stake pool operates completely differently and existed before I even came to Cardano. So the stake pool we
46:03
acquired already had delegators, already had a purpose it serves, you know, and
46:09
we didn't ship that purpose in spite of it changing hands, right? So, it's not I
46:15
don't have the right to vote on behalf of all of these delegators that already had their own, you know what I'm saying?
46:22
Like, they deserve to be able to tell us how to vote as a state pool for things that apply to state pools. That's my
46:29
personal belief because of the way we came to acquire the state pool.
46:36
Yeah, my current question was about SPOS's, but we do have a similar thing under DEP. So I try to find and capture
46:43
it to that. Yeah. And and personally my DREP, you know, he
46:49
he feels very similar, you know, and pulls us to the best of his abilities before he makes decisions. Um, however,
46:56
he's not afraid to make those decisions kind of independently of us if he feels,
47:02
you know, we are lacking in certain understanding or whatever. And I think that that's okay. Like DREPs should
47:08
represent theirel themselves first. And then also, you know, taking into
47:13
account depending upon how the DREP is styled, like some DREPs will tell us, hey, I'm going to vote my conscience on
47:19
this every single time, and it's not up to the delegators. If you don't like it, go delegate away. Um, so I I think that
47:26
that should be more, you know, more tailored to how the DREP decides to do
47:31
that. But as far as stake pools, man, like a lot of these stake pools, they represent something, you know, whether it be like Sprout Pool that represents,
47:38
you know, ecology and, you know, protecting the planet or like our stake pool is more focused around music
47:44
development and it existed before I was here. So, I can't change that and I wanted to reflect that.
48:00
Thank you, James. I think there's two schools of thought
48:06
here. Um, one is is that u this is a pretty small tight-knit community and
48:12
there's a lot of builders here and a lot of times with these dre boat votes it means you know direct um financial
48:20
impact to somebody else. Uh and so if in a lot of ways you might be even
48:27
compromised uh with your vote based on the fact that you work for somebody else
48:32
that is looking to get a treasury withdrawal and because of that you're going to vote yes on it because it
48:38
immediately impacts you. So you're thinking about yourself. Um
48:43
what I've chosen to do is and so that there is a struggle there surrounding that. Um, and in some cases people won't
48:50
leave rationale for it and they'll just vote yes or no. Uh, in order to make sure that they don't get pigeonholed,
48:56
you know, I said, well, I see you voted yes and it's because you're working with this guy and it directly impacts you,
49:02
say for example. So instead, I put something in my bio that just stated that um, the way I make decisions is
49:07
based off the community, those who are builders here. So, if it's technical, for example, I will lean in on all of
49:14
the people that I know that are CTOs that have been here a while that understand the tech, uh, like the most
49:20
recent one that was around parameter change. um giving headroom for um see I
49:25
can't even remember the entire thing but I used other people in order to be able to give me good information on what that
49:31
meant as I read through the uh proposal uh and then got really good insight from
49:38
those who technically understood it so I could make a good educated decision on it and then I include that in my
49:44
rationale um as well. So, I am not a person that knows everything about
49:49
everything and I'm not going to represent myself that way in any way. So, um I just make sure that no matter
49:56
what it is, um I come from a from a point of view where I've used or had other people help me make those
50:02
decisions where I couldn't make it for myself. I don't pull my community or the
50:07
delegators at all. I I just go off of what I think is most important for our ecosystem at this very moment in time.
50:15
uh and then I make a vote based on that and I put out that rationale. Um so but
50:20
I could see where others could be compromised andor they struggle with it because you know there is not a lot of
50:26
money coming in uh from outside users and so they're directly uh you know um
50:32
dependent on the funding mechanism and it makes it really hard to make good
50:38
unbiased decisions sometimes I think. So tough that particular part.
50:45
Can I um can I add something to this conversation? Kathy, I saw your hand was up. I want to let you have an
50:50
opportunity to go first. So Okay. Um something I've spoken to uh Ken
50:57
about just like an ideal solution for getting my state pool for instance to
51:03
participate in governance would be implementing or funding
51:10
a tool like CNFT tools, they provide discord connectivity that verifies like
51:15
onchain holdership or roles and stuff. Making those resources to participate in
51:21
governance available to everyone without the additional like charge for that
51:27
monthly fee or whatever that would allow us as a lot of NFT communities or crypto
51:32
communities that have been in Cardano for a long time. CNF tools is present in most Cardano discords that involve like
51:39
an NFT or a token or something like that. I think that that would make it much more accessible for stake pools
51:46
like myself to just use the existing toolkit we have implementing governance
51:51
polling there that would basically allow like holders not holders people who are
51:57
delegated to a certain stake pool would then be able to be pulled specifically on how something should be done or what
52:03
action the pool should take right that's just how I would be able to implement it right away you know something like CNT
52:11
tools but there's a handful of other Discord bots that are relatively widely used. Um, and then there's also that
52:17
parody. Whatever we have present on Discord should also be present for the Telegram communities, right? And we need
52:23
to make sure that there is parody between these platforms, right? I I was going to use Clarity at at one point for
52:30
our stake pool, but it requires $75 per month and my pool doesn't mint a block a
52:36
month, so I can't even afford that, you know. Um, it's just like we have this
52:41
functionality sometime and [clears throat] in some places, but it's locked behind a pay wall that is not
52:47
cost effective for smaller pools like myself. Does that make sense?
52:55
Yes. I took a note of how like tools are
53:00
costly like one of the paras tools are
53:06
are not available. Yeah. And I appreciate it. Thank you uh thank you Tabbo for cataloging all this
53:15
and and I do want to say I appreciate James' take on that like kind of relying on experts at times because that's man I
53:22
think that that's essential like if we're going to have good decisions made as a blockchain. I don't know everything
53:28
and I defer to my DREP or other professionals at times to decide how you
53:34
know how my stance should look. I think that that's it's good. It's good. It's a form of compromise. We got to be able to
53:39
do that. So, table, I had one thing to add. One
53:45
other sticky note, and it just had to do with the fact of uh ration how to be
53:50
able to disseminate them out into um social media, things of that nature. If we had something to where if there was
53:57
one particular platform that when I wrote the rationale, it would also create an XUS directly that would just go out into X, it would make my life a
54:03
lot easier. um if it even made it to where it would go out in a nice graphic form where visual learners were able to
54:10
see it, you know, like myself where I don't want to read this long rationale. I just don't. Instead, I get the key
54:15
points of the rationale so people can see it and move on. Um and it comes in a
54:20
nice little graphic form that would also be exceedingly helpful having to do with um basically just putting those rationes
54:28
out. Maybe Dreppps would be more inclined to do that and they might
54:34
actually even see some benefit from it with new delegation because they started doing that.
54:46
Good thing we are in the world of AI where the tools are now coming up in weekly basis. So
54:54
I hope you will find your tool in upcoming month whoever is listening. And
54:59
Kathy nice. Yes, I was watching looking through the
55:06
the sticky notes there and I can see that there is several one uh concerned
55:12
or scared of losing delegation, afraid of what people might think or
55:17
just being will avoid rush nulls to avoid something that would be held
55:23
against you. So there's a lot of things that tells me here that the DREPs are
55:29
actually quite afraid that we need to have quite a backbone to be a DREP and
55:34
stand tall for your ideas and your uh values and that tells me maybe we need
55:40
some kind of education for the DREPs and also for the community that we do not
55:46
give hate to a DREP that actually does the work. It's lots lots of work being a
55:52
DREP. Uh it can be fatiguing to pay attention to all of this and
55:58
gathering all the information you need to place a vote to know how to vote yes or no. And if in that you're actually
56:06
afraid of putting in a rationale because you're afraid of people holding it against you
56:13
doesn't seem like a community I would want to be a DR rep in. And that means that we need to work actively with
56:19
attitudes and values and how to be a DREP and how the community needs to
56:25
treat the DRS because we can agree without hating. We can agree and we can disagree without being violent and hate
56:33
each other. I mean we can disagree respectfully and I think that I mean do
56:39
we really really need to teach grown-ups these things? But obviously we do because we can't
56:44
have the reps that will represent the ADA holders and being afraid of their
56:50
opinion and their way of voting and their way of writing Russians will
56:55
backfire on them. That's just that that breaks my heart.
57:01
That's really and it goes several of the sticky notes says things like that and
57:08
and that's the big concern. How can you have a cons um how can you have a
57:14
governance and how can you have um democracy if that is the people
57:19
representing you are afraid like that? Yeah Danielella you have your hand up
57:26
first. Yeah, just to add to that, I think some of the
57:31
factors contributing to that relates to how our governance system requires a
57:38
DREP to vote on every single type of action.
57:43
And that means if I sign up to be a DREP to represent others, I have to vote on the
57:49
uh Treasury withdrawals. I have to vote on constitutional amendments. I have to vote on technical changes.
57:57
Um, and so we also have a bit of a smaller community where we have a ton of people
58:04
who are, as James mentioned, I think it was James, we don't have an inflow of
58:09
um, investors and other sources of funds. So everybody goes to the Treasury and everybody is asking for funding
58:17
through the Treasury withdrawals. And so we have quite frequently I think
58:24
not always a conflict of interest but just overlap where people have um they
58:30
feel like they need to be voting on the treasury withdrawals as their duty to be a DRAP but they are also asking for
58:37
funding. So they've got this conflicting um position and I think that's probably
58:42
one of the root causes that leads to this um in addition to the culture that
58:48
you're talking about Kathy of let's be adults and know how to have constructive
58:54
debate and like be constructive when we disagree as well.
58:59
So I actually agree with uh Danielle um and in that and both you actually um
59:06
Kathy as well um there's always going to be people who are going to spew out you know uh opinion um uneducated maybe um
59:15
biased maybe hateful um to others and you just have to be com stay true to
59:21
yourself and what it is that you believe and why [clears throat] it is that you're here as a DREP. So if you stay
59:27
true to that, it doesn't really matter what other people are going to say. And so you're just going to have to develop a little bit of a thick skin here.
59:33
There's really no other way to go about it. In a lot of cases, some people who are making really awful statements
59:39
really don't even have any skin in the game, I've noticed, and are don't aren't really even remotely um invested into
59:47
Cardono at all. They just want to be able to say something out loud on X um because they're apparently getting it
59:52
themselves. So they're trying to just push it out into the universe and get it off of them. I'm not sure what exactly is going on there. Um I don't know how
59:59
you actually um you can educate them on ensuring that
1:00:04
they know that they are going to go through this particular thing and they are going to suffer from it on occasion
1:00:10
based on rationale. Um those who voted no or uh gave a rationale on snack uh
1:00:17
that was a really great social experiment. Uh, and you got to see a lot of people that are very biased in their
1:00:23
opinion and when someone voted no, they gave that DREP a lot of grief and it
1:00:28
included somebody that' been around for quite a while in this ecosystem that I highly respect. Um, and it was
1:00:34
completely unfair. Um, so, you know, you just have to expect that that's going to happen no matter what.
1:00:41
I'm not sure how you you mitigate that particular thing. [snorts]
1:00:48
checking. I actually agree with James on this. Uh
1:00:54
the internet's a terrible place. It's probably always going to be this way. It is the dirty side of politics. Um yeah,
1:01:01
but I I do think that this whole minimum viable governance, if I had any hope of
1:01:06
anything, it would be that minimum viable governance is set to kind of deploy more of the ADA into governance.
1:01:14
So like reducing that auto abstain number by deploying more tools ensuring
1:01:20
that there's parity on all these platforms whether it be wallets explorers that we're using the tools
1:01:27
that people are using in discord and telegram like if we can just ensure that the tools are there for participation
1:01:35
we need to be focused on like growing governance participation to get a better you know better picture of what's what's
1:01:43
really going on in the ecosystem. I think that that that would be a really good goal. If I if I could ask for
1:01:48
anything, it would just be seeing that auto abstain number go down, you know. I think through tools, you know, we'll
1:01:55
we'll we'll see that happen. Well,

### Elegant Next Steps

1:02:01
if not, how about we close the session with this uh collection of today? We got
1:02:08
through three questions. I think we covered a good amount of grounds. What is going
1:02:15
to happen next is um in the yeah next week we're going to clean a bit of that.
1:02:22
you will find another similar meeting summary that I did for the previous workshop and then
1:02:30
we'll see I think over the next week or two there will be an analysis of these results um and we move overs to move
1:02:38
forward to like creating a report out of that aligning I wonder can are we able to show them
1:02:45
visualization in the next report or this is not yet coming I think we have to wait until we have at
1:02:52
least finished the review and it will be published uh on the next uh milestone uh
1:02:59
if I'm not mistaken Daniel uh but uh metrics will come out and just to also
1:03:06
chime in on what Shaggy said that so we are going to compare cardon the metrics that we are doing against traditional uh
1:03:14
governance and there is like a strong evidence to put it like that that uh
1:03:20
most people don't want to participate actively in governance if the cost or
1:03:25
complexity is high. So uh and knowing
1:03:31
getting shamed uh lack of tools um as I've been telling you uh that is
1:03:37
included in the cost and complexity is basically how available it is. So uh um
1:03:45
all your inputs that you got here today is so valuable uh because we're going to
1:03:52
compare what's actually happening on chain what are the traditional governance expectation and have somebody
1:04:00
messed up this before to be like that in dows in the past. So thank you everybody
1:04:09
and another thing how those who are watching and want to kind of participate
1:04:15
but did couldn't join any of the workshops we probably going to run at least one more in Twitter as that at
1:04:23
least in my understanding and the date and time is not yet set in the beyond
1:04:29
link tree as synchronously can also fill the surveys we have for ADA owners reps
1:04:35
and these are a bit different. So they're not like open-ended questions. So it but it makes it easier then again
1:04:40
to respond to and even if you're not on the road maybe check it and see how you
1:04:46
understand it and that will also give it like quantitative information to the very similar questions you had today
1:04:53
discussed. [clears throat] Um so yeah and if you want to discuss
1:04:58
these frameworks and uh stuff we have bullet but we also have a this uh chat
1:05:03
GPD here so you don't have to create your own LLM to find the specific
1:05:10
things. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So uh if you find the
1:05:15
English survey way too easy to fill out try the Japanese one instead. [laughter]
1:05:27
challenge not accepted.
1:05:35
Po, if I may, just a quick one for me. Um, just want to encourage um, anyone
1:05:41
that's on the call um, to please feel free to promote and share the survey
1:05:47
links via the link tree with your network. it will really help us with the
1:05:53
um data gathering activity. Um so yeah, really appreciate that if you could.
1:05:58
Thank you. Um could I make one small suggestion? So
1:06:04
that link tree, if you were to make something to where it would be a graphic along with a link and then within some
1:06:10
of these heated discussions, within some of the larger DREPs, if you were to then make a comment and then plug that
1:06:18
particular uh graphic, uh you might get more uh participation
1:06:25
because especially in the ones where someone's making a comment on a particular thing and it might not be
1:06:31
just a DREP vote. might be a DREP, a well-known DRREP like Dave or Yoda or
1:06:37
even myself or somebody else that is commenting on something and then you get in there and make a comment and then
1:06:42
plug that particular graphic. Um, you might get more participation there potentially. Um, that'd be an easy way
1:06:50
to go about, you know, getting the best bang for your buck.
1:06:55
Yeah, I like that idea. Thanks. Yeah, thanks. Thanks everyone for your time on a
1:07:01
Saturday. This was a fun conversation. Thanks for being here.
1:07:08
Thanks guys for everything you do. Appreciate it. I know it's a lot of work. So, thank you very much.
1:07:13
See you guys. Take it easy. Have a nice weekend. Bye. Bye. Have a nice weekend. Bye. Bye.
1:07:20
Thank you. Open your mind. Bye-bye.