---
workshop_number: 13
date: 2026-05-11
title: "Consolidated Recommendation Prioritisation -- Session 1"
video_url: https://youtu.be/Pcqya2EVPCw
youtube_description: |
  First prioritisation session over the consolidated nine recommendations.
  The group worked through two top items: a Cardano Problem Statement that
  coordinates the DRep-concentration and DRep-compensation discussions, and
  bringing governance information into wallets. Ryan walked through his
  alternative reward-scheme (exclude top K, pay next N) optimised for
  decentralisation and participation; the room debated funding from a
  reduced governance-action deposit (e.g. 1000 ADA split between DReps,
  SPOs and CC) versus CIP-149 in-wallet tipping which has so far seen no
  wallet uptake. On wallets, the case for in-wallet notifications and
  one-click voting was framed as legitimacy for ADA-holder participation,
  countered by the question of whether 15 wallet teams will build it
  without a business case.
attendees:
  - Tevo Kask
  - Ryan
  - John
  - Daniel
  - Lucas
  - Pedro
  - Seon Gbiri
  - Quaser
---

# Workshop #13 Transcript -- Consolidated Recommendation Prioritisation -- Session 1

Raw verbatim YouTube auto-caption transcript. Timestamps and line wraps preserved.

## Transcript

Uh basically you have this page when you go to this prioritization page I'm actually going to share it direct link I did so the last link um it should
0:1010 secondsautomatically select the beyond mg like recommendations so if you remember the last three weeks
0:1717 secondswe have been going through all of these workshops these are on the workshop page can see our different discussions we had
0:2525 secondsand if you're wondering what each of these discussions talked about or what uh more than just these key insights that are brought out here. You have
0:3333 secondsopportunity to ask AI assistant very specific discussions or very specific questions and it should have the context
0:4343 secondsof all the meeting summaries and provide you at some at least some kind of like background info. Um that's I guess
0:5252 secondsyeah either in the call or in you can try it yourself or yeah synchronously to catch up. Um but basically through all
1:001 minuteof these workshops that we were about prioritization, we moved uh we identified a bunch of
1:081 minute, 8 secondsthem. I think 35 or something and now we
1:151 minute, 15 secondsin the team created 10 or actually nine recommendations. Yeah. out of these what we created and some of them we separated
1:231 minute, 23 secondsout into like um like a specific recommendation and some of them we combined into more
1:321 minute, 32 secondsgeneral if they were like standalone ones and today I would like take the first uh let's say five minutes or so
1:401 minute, 40 secondsfor people to go through this um pay on the recommendations and if you're in
1:471 minute, 47 secondsthis page and it's not showing up uh and it's look like that then you either you
1:551 minute, 55 secondssort by newest or you just click pay on AVG and it automatically filters out depend on the G tag
2:022 minutes, 2 secondsbecause this is do they only focus on these tag recommendations and then here are like this Reddit style
2:122 minutes, 12 secondsuh up and down ranking options you have here if you want to have a topic about this recommendation, go into more
2:202 minutes, 20 secondsdetails with it and then rank it up or if you find it like a priority or a necessity
2:282 minutes, 28 secondsthen yeah rank it up and then we discuss about it today. We go through different assessments, share general knowledge or
2:362 minutes, 36 secondssome insight. If you know any of these recommendations is being already uh like done somewhere in the ecosystem
2:452 minutes, 45 secondsand even if we are not addressing today some of the discussion all of this application is available uh
2:522 minutes, 52 secondsasynchronously. So come back anytime you're available add some comments add some assessments or reank. We're going to have a one more session this week.
3:023 minutes, 2 secondsalso which we in on Friday. So all the asynchronous
3:083 minutes, 8 secondsactivity will benefit and else we just start from a blank slate.
3:143 minutes, 14 secondsUm so take your time going through the recommendation. When you click it open on the top here you will see the uh like
3:233 minutes, 23 secondsthe main recommendation and some of them have like additional information expected outcomes. Some of them have
3:303 minutes, 30 secondsalso these um dashboards attached what specific challenges they address.
3:383 minutes, 38 secondsUm yeah, this way you go up and down and then you either up vote or down vote if
3:463 minutes, 46 secondsyou want to kind of prioritize discussion and then after you have five minutes or so we will u
3:553 minutes, 55 secondsuh sort them by most votes and yeah go from top to down. Then
4:074 minutes, 7 secondswith that silence I think we start then um final refresh and
4:144 minutes, 14 secondsno changes. Okay seems there was a change another item appeared higher up.
4:214 minutes, 21 secondsUh let me yeah I think everything should be fine. Let's then kick it off with that.
4:304 minutes, 30 secondsUm so a recommendation is about kicking off a coordinated discussion via Cardano problem statements that clearly frames
4:394 minutes, 39 secondsthe various root causes and complimentary solutions for dere power distribution.
4:454 minutes, 45 secondsCIP uh has started one direction and then let's wonder do we have any
4:554 minutes, 55 secondslinks to that? Not really, but somebody with a wallet address did add
5:045 minutes, 4 secondssome extra links, but they are not the CIP links and direct direct tipping is already possible, but not widely available.
5:155 minutes, 15 secondsOkay. So maybe that CIP is about the direct tipping itself. Uh yeah, this is a CIP for optional DREP.
5:265 minutes, 26 secondsuh compensation where you can uh donate in wallet. It
5:335 minutes, 33 secondswas uh implemented by um intersect and the service committee uh out for grants for wallets to integrate. I think it is
5:425 minutes, 42 secondsuh available in eternal and it needs more adoption.
5:485 minutes, 48 secondsMhm. Okay. And that recommendation then is creating
5:555 minutes, 55 secondsparallel awareness that this feature exists.
6:006 minutesSolution should be designed to work together not in opposition. Address unscrup
6:086 minutes, 8 secondspower accumulation and current burnout that lets larger dre continue once more one drop out.
6:186 minutes, 18 secondsuh more distributed here means voting power does not perpetually trend towards fewer
6:256 minutes, 25 secondsdups incentives avoid good actor burnout compensation must be grounded in data
6:356 minutes, 35 secondsfrom various attempts because compensation is hard to reverse the power caps must come with civil
6:436 minutes, 43 secondsresistance it sounds more like it's a challenge and prep rather than recommendation itself.
6:566 minutes, 56 secondsYeah, the idea on this one is that we know there's already a lot of compensation discussions happening and
7:027 minutes, 2 secondsalso discussions around how we could from a more technical perspective limit power to individual durups but they both
7:127 minutes, 12 secondsum are addressing the same root concern of power concentration somewhat for compensation around participation and improving participation for dups.
7:237 minutes, 23 secondsbut also conversations about compensation have been related to how do you compensate dups in a way that encourages broader distribution of
7:317 minutes, 31 secondspower. So since both of those discussions relate to the same problem, um having them formalized
7:397 minutes, 39 secondstogether at least so that those two topics are being discussed aware of each other so they can work better together
7:477 minutes, 47 secondsum if there's opportunities for deer caps to somehow be related to compensation or maybe they need to stay
7:547 minutes, 54 secondsseparate but having that conversation in a way that we're not creating two different solutions that maybe could have been optim optimized if we were
8:028 minutes, 2 secondsbetter talking and just generally moving both of those conversations forward as very both of
8:098 minutes, 9 secondsthem as important topics to come up with solutions and start implementing.
8:208 minutes, 20 secondsI also see Ryan or Sirarin uh added a link to the comment there. Um
8:278 minutes, 27 secondshe has uh uh beyond the binary outcomes a process first reward designed for direct
8:358 minutes, 35 secondscompensation. Um would you explain a little bit about that? Uh Ryan.
8:428 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. Um so there was an uh an IO paper that I I read um reward size for
8:508 minutes, 50 secondscommittee schemes or something like that. I'll try to find a link to that later. um that I think had some research I
8:578 minutes, 57 secondsyeah the yes I'm aware of yeah I was reading that it had some interesting ideas but I think the premise was I don't want to say flawed
9:059 minutes, 5 secondsbut there was like kind of starting with the the premise that quality is a measurable thing and I think quality is actually a really hard thing to measure so I kind of decided to write my own
9:149 minutes, 14 secondsside using their same similar methodology right of grading different dr compensation schemes assuming that quality is not something that we can
9:229 minutes, 22 secondsmeasure. So what is the the next best best things we can measure, right? And then one of the problems we're discussing here is how do we, you know,
9:309 minutes, 30 secondsget more distributed voting power, prevent concentration, right? Um I think if you're going to be doing incentives, that seems like the obvious thing to to try and solve is to see if you can use
9:389 minutes, 38 secondsincentives to solve that problem. Um which is basically measuring decentralization, right? If we can use incentives to, you know, push voting power to be more decentralized, that
9:469 minutes, 46 secondssounds like a win-win. Um and then secondary the secondary metric we can measure with this is just participation right we want to get more stake and
9:539 minutes, 53 secondsvoting power involved in the in the you know in governance. Um so this is kind of trying to optimize first for decentralization second for
10:0110 minutes, 1 secondparticipation. Um kind of comes up with a whole bunch of different uh simulations to run. Um and then I've got
10:0910 minutes, 9 secondssome charts at the bottom that show um how those work out based on different compensation schemes. Um and then the kind of the scheme that I kind of
10:1710 minutes, 17 secondsrecommend in this paper is uh middle out or uh exclude K pay next N which is basically like if we take the top KD
10:2610 minutes, 26 secondsdraps and we just exclude them from eligibility and then we take the next ND reps and we compensate them um how effective would that be? Um and then I
10:3410 minutes, 34 secondsmeasured it on those two metrics and it is not uh in terms of participation paying paying strictly by proportional
10:4110 minutes, 41 secondsto voting power will help more with voting power as you see as you're sharing right now. Um but the middle out method I was describing is a little bit more towards decentralization.
10:5210 minutes, 52 secondsUm and then the other thing that uh I kind of like about the middle out method is it's uh it's cheaper on the treasury, right? like you don't necessarily need
10:5910 minutes, 59 secondsto have a huge amount of of of ADA to compensate derups for to make it effective, right? So the some of the
11:0611 minutes, 6 secondsexamples I have here um dups are only getting like one or 10 ADA per proposal they vote on.
11:1211 minutes, 12 secondsUm and this and this whole idea is like you get rewarded per proposal. So if there's 100 proposals, say you get 10 ADA per proposal, now it's a thousand ADA. But if there's, you know, a
11:2111 minutes, 21 secondsthousand proposals, then you it it it's it scales with the amount of work you have to do by tying compensation to the amount of proposals.
11:3011 minutes, 30 secondsAnd there's some heat maps based on the different K and N and and that sort of thing.
11:3511 minutes, 35 secondsCool. Cool. Just out. So I I haven't read any all about this this I just know that you have been working on this for
11:4211 minutes, 42 secondsquite some time. Uh so there in um uh we have a working group in the civics
11:5011 minutes, 50 secondscommittee that is uh working on compensation not only for DEF but also for CC members as well. Yeah.
11:5711 minutes, 57 secondsUm this propos this problem uh statement here is uh achieves funding from the treasury from what I understand.
12:0612 minutes, 6 secondsUm is it like we put for a budget or is it like integrated in a ledger later on or what what do
12:1412 minutes, 14 secondsYeah. So, what the way I I mean, this is my opinion here is I I think if you're going to do something, it needs to be a pilot program first. We say we put in a treasury withdrawal and we say we're
12:2212 minutes, 22 secondsgoing to try this for, you know, a year or six months or whatever and we're just going to do it manually, right? Maybe it's a intersect administered thing and then we look at all the people how they
12:3012 minutes, 30 secondsvote and we just do it out manually and we see if the if it actually affects the metrics we want. This actually increased decentralization. Did it actually increase participation? And if it works,
12:3812 minutes, 38 secondswe keep it. Um, and eventually if people turn to like it, we can we can formalize it in the ledger, right? have it just pay people directly to their staking accounts. Um, and I also think that
12:4612 minutes, 46 secondssomething like this could work just as easily for the CC except for for the CC decentralization isn't really a thing because they're they're elected. Um, but you could probably reuse the same
12:5412 minutes, 54 secondsmechanism and just reward them a different amount. Um, and even SPOS's for voting too. Um, yeah.
13:0113 minutes, 1 secondOh, so you spos as well.
13:0513 minutes, 5 secondsYeah, I think if you're going to do do that, it needs to be on specifically on things that they are eligible and required to vote on. So SPOS's don't
13:1313 minutes, 13 secondsreally vote on all that much. It's hard forks. Um I think they vote on the CC and then certain security parameters sec critical parameters.
13:2113 minutes, 21 secondsThey should be in they should be reward I can't stand the name. Sorry. But they should be uh you know in my opinion if they're going to be compensated you need to be compensated for the ones you have
13:2913 minutes, 29 secondsto vote on. You should not just be voting on things just to get paid for things that you don't even need to vote on. So um yeah. Nice. Nice.
13:3813 minutes, 38 secondsjust out of curiosity. I think I know the I I think I know the reason for it but so you mentioned to prevent
13:4413 minutes, 44 secondsconcentration. Uh is there some other reasons why you think DREPs CC and SPOS
13:5213 minutes, 52 secondsshould be compensation? Is like any other quality that that gives to the governance?
13:5913 minutes, 59 secondsYeah. So quality is the tricky part, right? Because we could all say it it's it's too subjective, right? like how how are we supposed to measure is the outcome of this proposal a good quality
14:0814 minutes, 8 secondsor bad quality for Cardano? Like that's the entire job of DREPs. Um there's no way to just objectively say oh this you're high quality DREP and then and
14:1614 minutes, 16 secondsthen reward somebody that way because there's always going to be some subjectivity in the process.
14:2214 minutes, 22 secondsBut would you say for example that if this was implemented and test out of NMP and it uh reduces the DREP uh
14:3114 minutes, 31 secondsconcentration would you say that is a good governance quality?
14:3514 minutes, 35 secondsYes. Yeah. That is that is the intended outcome of this and I'll mention because you had uh Nico's uh he had like five different uh ideas there too. uh his
14:4414 minutes, 44 secondsfirst idea or I forget it called experiments actually is intriguing because he compares it to ENS and their um
14:5214 minutes, 52 secondstheir incentives program right and so he mentions rewarding delegators which has some interesting qualities but also has
14:5914 minutes, 59 secondssome interesting downsides right because if you're going to reward delegators it's probably going to be more expensive because there's just a lot more delegators uh and also then you're kind of doing
15:0715 minutes, 7 secondsaway with the you know I'm a dre and I did work I should be compensated for that work but then you're paying the delegators like who's going to want to be a DRP in that case. I I think he's
15:1515 minutes, 15 secondsgot I think that's an interesting idea, but the only thing I would change is I would flip the ratio here. So, he has it going because of how ENS works. 90% to
15:2315 minutes, 23 secondsdelegators, 10% to DREPs, whatever ENS calls those. I would give 90% to DRS and 10% to delegators, right? So, if if
15:3115 minutes, 31 secondswe're doing 10 ADA proposal, so it's 9 ADA goes to a DREP, one ADA goes to a delegator, and now your delegator is incentivized delegate to a DREP that actually votes.
15:4115 minutes, 41 secondsSo it'll get even if it's one ADA per proposal like right like if we do a 100 proposals per year that's 100 ADA per delegator that could be you know some
15:4815 minutes, 48 secondsdelegators might be incentivized to change their delegation or at least pay attention to governance more often if that's the thing. Yeah.
15:5615 minutes, 56 secondsYeah. Yeah. It's just u so uh you know um how can I put it? So, so in uh beyond minimal governance um so in the
16:0516 minutes, 5 secondsframework that we created uh uh I dig down into um uh OSC the election
16:1416 minutes, 14 secondsobservers what kind of not like specific stuff that they are observing for but what is the values that they are looking
16:2216 minutes, 22 secondsfor in democracy and value and one of those uh things that they put forward
16:2916 minutes, 29 secondsvery critical is that Um you know governance has always a cost and it's because you have to have
16:3616 minutes, 36 secondssomeone that have to make information available. Um we have like in Cardano spaces as we have a suggestion here like
16:4516 minutes, 45 secondsbring governance closer to the ADA owners you know make governance happen in the wallet for example you know or even make governance happen on the
16:5316 minutes, 53 secondscentralized exchange. uh and what you are doing there is like boosting and emphasizing the quality of democratic
17:0217 minutes, 2 secondsparticipation which which again actually gives the representation of the free will of the people or the ADA owner. You
17:1117 minutes, 11 secondsmentioned something interesting there that governance has a cost, right? So we have this actual technical problem that we have to have a a very expensive deposit for submitting an onchain governance action 100k deposit, right?
17:2217 minutes, 22 secondsUm but it just gets returned to the proposer. But then at the same time, de have to all to do this work and don't get compensated. So I've been toying with the idea of how we can have it such
17:2917 minutes, 29 secondsthat a portion or even all of the deposit is actually what goes to the delegators as compensation rather than having it just returned to the proposer.
17:3817 minutes, 38 secondsUm, of course that would probably make a lot of people not want to propose because there's, you know, a much more tangible cost. Like there already is a cost, right? Staking rewards on 100k ADA
17:4617 minutes, 46 secondsfor six epics is about 200 ADA. So is at least a hard 200 ADA cost. Um, but we did just see a whole bunch of people pay a thousand ADA to get a treasury withdrawal for Intersect. Um, so maybe
17:5517 minutes, 55 secondseven if you have a,000 ADA and that's that's the deposit, right? It's not 100K anymore. More people can actually make onchain actions, but now you don't get
18:0318 minutes, 3 secondsthat back. But then those DREPs split up the thousand ADA.
18:0718 minutes, 7 secondsIt's a tiny amount of ADA but now you're compensating DRPs and it scales the amount of work you have to do. So I would say like you know onchain
18:1418 minutes, 14 secondsproposal the governance action today doesn't have a cost because you know you get the the ADA uh deposit back expect
18:2218 minutes, 22 secondsfrom you know like three 400 ADA in staking rewards or something like that.
18:2718 minutes, 27 secondsUm and I also um have seen some proposals. I think it's Thomas Linet who has proposed to actually spend some of
18:3718 minutes, 37 secondsthose uh the deposit and distributed because okay you are the one who are making a proposal. Okay you put a
18:4318 minutes, 43 secondscertain workload on currently 333 active dre. Exactly.
18:4818 minutes, 48 secondsUm and seven CC members and you know it's a parameter um critical parameter.
18:5518 minutes, 55 secondsOkay. Then it involves uh you know you have like 2,600 SPOS's you know eligible to vote
19:0219 minutes, 2 secondscurrently in the coronic system and then you charge for it. You pay them to evaluate.
19:0919 minutes, 9 secondsExactly. That's exactly what I was thinking. I think Lucas is Lucas this one is only Yeah. This one I
19:1719 minutes, 17 secondsI think you have read a lot about this one as well, haven't you?
19:2119 minutes, 21 secondsWell u not not so much. I've been looking at a lot of stuff but I can't really you know dive very deep into
19:2919 minutes, 29 secondsanything. I just want to add to what Sakurin just suggested that it may also be relevant and I know that he's been
19:3619 minutes, 36 secondsworking on uh crowdsource crowdfunding uh funds for that deposit. So it may seem harsh to say okay you're going to
19:4519 minutes, 45 secondsput in a governance action you're going to pay those 100,000 ADA to the treasury or to be distributed as rewards but we
19:5219 minutes, 52 secondsalso sort of need in the ecosystem a way that if we were to incentivize or create mechanisms for people to crowdfund
20:0220 minutes, 2 secondsthe the deposit or in this case cost of the governance action that would also already create some kind of uh promotion
20:1020 minutes, 10 secondsto it validation Otherwise, you're not going to be able to crowdfund it and in that case you would really need to pay for it yourself.
20:2120 minutes, 21 secondsYeah. and and what I think so um the the practical solution is in the what out of
20:3020 minutes, 30 secondsthose proposals you have currently I think it is um combination uh of those um um let's say for example
20:3920 minutes, 39 secondsthe calculation here that sir had made um we might uh Thomas's ID you know
20:4620 minutes, 46 secondstaking some some from the um uh deposits and make it a cost. I I think it is um
20:5520 minutes, 55 secondsit's going to be very exciting at least to see what the working group um at the
21:0121 minutes, 1 secondcivics and uh I I'm not uh aware of anyone else let's say looking all over
21:0821 minutes, 8 secondsthe uh ecosystem for let's say other types of compensation beyond
21:1621 minutes, 16 secondsuh me in um MG here project and trying to like scout out uh everything going on.
21:2721 minutes, 27 secondsI don't know what you guys think like like is it feasible you think uh is it fair to take from the deposits?
21:3621 minutes, 36 secondsI mean we just did it for the intersect budget process just it was a cost and that's already into into the range of
21:4421 minutes, 44 secondswhat I thought people would be willing to pay. So I guess I guess there's definitely a demand for it.
21:5121 minutes, 51 secondsYeah. So let's just just play around with it a little bit. So let imagine that we just reduced the uh uh reduced
21:5821 minutes, 58 secondsthe deposit for governance action to let's say 1,000 AD
22:0422 minutes, 4 secondsand that got distributed to CCU members, D reps and uh state pool operators
22:1322 minutes, 13 secondsin I don't know like um here comes the you know hard debate like
22:2122 minutes, 21 secondswhat's the distribution going to look like let's say imagine 60% goes to DRES 20% goes to SPOS's and the rest is go to
22:3022 minutes, 30 secondsCC just for example you know that is something that is uh from yeah
22:3922 minutes, 39 secondsfrom what I know in regards to the ledger level feasible and easy to calculate it doesn't put a lot of stress
22:4722 minutes, 47 secondson the ledger you know um like the dre post calculation and then and the staking rewards calculation
22:5622 minutes, 56 secondsand it can be you know when the proposal goes out the ledger can just calculate the distribution and it gets claimed
23:0523 minutes, 5 secondswhen the DREP votes or the SPO votes or the CC votes by the stake I don't know
23:1223 minutes, 12 secondsif like like go practical on it but even if you do that then we are
23:2023 minutes, 20 secondsstepping out a it from this uh this recommendation itself. Does that mean it
23:2723 minutes, 27 secondsdoesn't really align? Because right now it seems like you're describing a ledger mechanic to fund where this is giving an
23:3723 minutes, 37 secondsinteraction that let's leverage the CIP0149 which is totally different feature basically on top of Cardano.
23:4823 minutes, 48 secondsYeah, that that that's that is like u you as um delegator to your DREP. You just choose that uh from my staking
23:5723 minutes, 57 secondsrewards. So basically you're not putting allow on load on the treasury uh in regards to financing um you're
24:0424 minutes, 4 secondsdelegating a certain portion of your um uh staking rewards.
24:1324 minutes, 13 secondsBut the mechanic you know to try to decentralize uh the vulp power power and
24:2124 minutes, 21 secondsif you look at the v the democratic values that you are building up on they are the same because um
24:3024 minutes, 30 secondsum but yeah but I I um I think um we had tested out uh CIP 149 it's been out
24:3924 minutes, 39 secondsthere for h eight months now uh despite the C civics committee calling and even
24:4924 minutes, 49 secondssending emails repeatly to ask if they wanted this grant for 5,000 ADA
24:5524 minutes, 55 secondsthe the the wallet providers uh and SDK pro they didn't prioritize um
25:0225 minutes, 2 secondsCIP 149 so I think it needs to be on the ledger level
25:1025 minutes, 10 secondsand when you have it on the ledger then the wallet providers will say the ROI in in um facilitating and creating the UI for it.
25:2225 minutes, 22 secondsYeah, Daniel.
25:2425 minutes, 24 secondsYeah, I was just wondering because we've been focused on just one of the 10 um the whole time and then you mentioned
25:3025 minutes, 30 secondsthe the wallets and I think that's number three here on the screen. might be interesting to talk about either um
25:3825 minutes, 38 secondsanother topic or move on to to see if we can actually get folks to provide their um their votes
25:4725 minutes, 47 secondswith the time remaining to talk like think through all of them and make a decision as to which ones they think are most important.
25:5625 minutes, 56 secondsYeah, just here in front I think you have a good uh like grasp. I also felt like this recommendation even though at
26:0526 minutes, 5 secondsthe first glance felt like a priority to discuss I assessed it as a cold and wouldn't even go into measuring it and
26:1226 minutes, 12 secondslooking at something which is more yeah timesensitive right now and because maybe at the least what
26:2226 minutes, 22 secondseverybody could do is provide an assess impact assessment on this based on our discussions we had and I felt like From
26:3126 minutes, 31 secondsmy perspective, it had a low impact on like with the specific recommendation where Ryan is affecting like ledger and
26:4026 minutes, 40 secondsit's uh it creates like less friction once it's applied. Although how to get that applied is is there like a front
26:4826 minutes, 48 secondsload work that needs to be done. Um so yeah that's my kind of my opinion on
26:5826 minutes, 58 secondsthat and but if you think this is has more impact other metrics are important for you share comments everything is
27:0527 minutes, 5 secondsavailable um John you also want to add something on this uh recommendation or moving to
27:1327 minutes, 13 secondsanother one um yeah thanks thanks to um I'll speak for a minute I think it's that this over central centralization of power in just
27:2227 minutes, 22 secondsa few dre is sort of for me it's the absolute crucial issue in all of governance. If we don't solve this, we we really don't solve anything. We don't
27:3127 minutes, 31 secondshave anything that's fit for purpose. Um and you know whenever 30 people can be called up by proposers um you know it's
27:3927 minutes, 39 secondsleft the door to eventual corruption you know absolutely wide wide open. uh so the whole governance system is not fit
27:4627 minutes, 46 secondsfor purpose unless decentralization of DREP power takes place. Now compensating
27:5427 minutes, 54 secondssmaller DREPs to get them more involved is obviously one step but it doesn't necessarily trigger the act delegation
28:0228 minutes, 2 secondsthat we need but over time then it would at least have the body of DRPs that we always wanted that would be able to be
28:1028 minutes, 10 secondsdelegated to. Now, I think it was Danielle or maybe somebody else posted the IOG state of governance report.
28:1928 minutes, 19 secondsThat's this project team.
28:2028 minutes, 20 secondsIt it was this project team. Okay. Well, in that I I I I read that cover to cover. I thought it was brilliant. Well done. Um it says that uh I think the
28:2928 minutes, 29 secondsnumber quoted is 20 to 35 DREPs are all that's required to pass a proposal. And so this instead of saying that the top
28:3828 minutes, 38 seconds10 should be excluded, I I would push that right out to the top 35. If if DREPs are in that top 35, then they've already got the motivation. They're
28:4728 minutes, 47 secondsthey're running businesses that the wallets or SPOS's. I did a check actually and went through how many have
28:5428 minutes, 54 secondsbusinesses and it's, you know, 85 90% of the top 35 have a, you know, a business where they're already engaged. Their
29:0229 minutes, 2 secondsvoice is meaningful. So compensation for them wouldn't really make a difference.
29:0629 minutes, 6 secondsSo I'd like that level shifted down to 35. Um and then I really liked the idea
29:1329 minutes, 13 secondsof using some part of the deposit that people pay to compensate. Now one issue with that would be if you eventually get
29:2329 minutes, 23 secondsabout 300 400 smaller DREPs voting even a thousand ADA distributed amongst them would be not meaningful enough. And I
29:3229 minutes, 32 secondsthink there's a way that you can you can get what you want, which is lots of smaller DREPs participating on a regular
29:3929 minutes, 39 secondsbasis at a much cheaper price. Um, and that would be by not paying them all all
29:4529 minutes, 45 secondsthe time, but rather paying one or two a larger amount with each proposal that
29:5229 minutes, 52 secondsgoes through. Essentially running it like in the same way that you distribute uh uh money to the the SPOS. Every time
30:0130 minutes, 1 seconda block's produced, essentially a lottery is run and one block gets all of the money. Essentially run that for
30:0930 minutes, 9 secondssomething like the SPOS. That way, you know, if you had a 500 ADA prize given
30:1630 minutes, 16 secondsout between three or 400 DR repres, but when you do, at least it's
30:2330 minutes, 23 secondsmeaningful and you actually get that participation. Now, uh I know a bit about um lottery and gaming regulations,
30:3230 minutes, 32 secondsprize competitions. You would need to get uh a legal opinion on it. you'd need to write the idea out about what you
30:4030 minutes, 40 secondswhat you want and get a legal opinion uh and see what jurisdictions etc you're you're able to run that in. But it is
30:4630 minutes, 46 secondswithin a closed system. Nobody's buying a ticket. Um and certainly in UK law
30:5430 minutes, 54 secondsthen you would be able to run something like this within the UK. Whether you could then allow it to be open to people around the world would be one of the legal questions you need to solve. But
31:0231 minutes, 2 secondsthere are ways to to go through that idea in a structured way and get all of the participation benefits that you want
31:1031 minutes, 10 secondsuh at a much cheaper cost. Um anyway, so I'll just put that put that out there.
31:2431 minutes, 24 secondsI think it'd be good to hear from others what they think that the most important change would be. Thanks for that, John, by the way. Those are great thoughts.
31:3931 minutes, 39 secondsSo we have this uh recommendation in regards wallets.
31:4431 minutes, 44 secondsUh you have it there table.
31:5031 minutes, 50 secondsYou mean the SPO code wallet key wallets or oh to bring governance closer to um wallet
31:5831 minutes, 58 secondsbring governance information into wallets. this one. Yes.
32:0532 minutes, 5 secondsUm I would love to hear uh what you guys uh think about this. So
32:1332 minutes, 13 secondsum let's say put aside the technical part uh the geeky part uh and look at
32:2032 minutes, 20 secondsdo you think we would have a larger participation rate amongst uh ADA owners
32:2832 minutes, 28 secondsum to begin with you know those are the one who are empowering uh the whole
32:3432 minutes, 34 secondsgovernance model in Cardano. Um do do you think it would be um a good
32:4132 minutes, 41 secondsthing to bring um governance uh into the different wallets that we have have and have that a standard and I would love to
32:5032 minutes, 50 secondshear your opinion of of why is that or if it's not
33:0033 minutesI mean personally I think that's one of the highest value ad things we could do for governance if we want participation right like imagine you're just going to trade NFTs or some memecoin or something
33:0733 minutes, 7 secondsand you just see a popup that your deer voted and then you want you're curious to know what they voted on or maybe they you notice they voted on something you wouldn't have voted on or a way that you
33:1633 minutes, 16 secondswouldn't have voted so you want to change or maybe you want to you see a notification or RSS feed that there's a new proposal out maybe you're a DREP and
33:2433 minutes, 24 secondsyou and you notice it there like I I think I think we kind of run into the problem of wanting to build too many tools on Cardano and I I mentioned the XKCD meme for this right when I like 99%
33:3433 minutes, 34 secondsof these things should just be integrated into wallets like I should just be able to go to my wallet, see all the proposals, vote on the proposals, socialize my proposals, all of these
33:4133 minutes, 41 secondsthings inside the wallet. Um, and most of the hurdles there are, you know, technical mechanisms for doing that, right? Like if I want to have like a
33:4833 minutes, 48 secondskind of a socializ social media system, it would be very cool if it was integrated into the wallets, which is how do you do that like kind of in an
33:5533 minutes, 55 secondsonchain manner that is standardized across wallets. Uh, and I mentioned SIP I think 137 which is decentralized
34:0334 minutes, 3 secondsmessage Q which is something that's been talked about but it might be capable of doing that or even just integrating something like Noster on top of wallets which is kind of social media over uh
34:1234 minutes, 12 secondsnotes and I can't remember what it's called what Noster stands for but that's it's essentially what it is is for doing social media over internet decentralized
34:1934 minutes, 19 secondsprotocol. Um but yeah just like I feel like a lot of ADA holders that governance is not alive to them because it's just they don't even see it. It's
34:2634 minutes, 26 secondsjust a completely different world from because they're just interacting with wallets and DeFi and they don't see what's going on.
34:3334 minutes, 33 secondsYes. Thank you, Lucas. Not other stuff transmitted by relays. Yep.
34:3834 minutes, 38 secondsYeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so uh I don't know like I I think it like awesome if you like you mentioned like
34:4634 minutes, 46 secondsin a similar way that you know get notification you know snack pump 27% or your DREP just voted and
34:5534 minutes, 55 secondsum for yeah imagine that on a on a mobile wallet right your phone pops up and says your DR voted how how freaking cool would that be awesome
35:0335 minutes, 3 secondsyeah and you have also notifications in uh you know plugins in uh Chrome browsers as notifications. You know, I
35:1135 minutes, 11 secondsget a not notification when my email want to annoy me. Um, so uh
35:1835 minutes, 18 secondsI think it should be I think it's feasible uh to actually build. So when it comes to messaging you know
35:2835 minutes, 28 secondsuh in the crypto space you know we have messaging like wormhole uh even between blockchains
35:3535 minutes, 35 secondsum we have pos meta data in transactions that uh like when you send a transaction
35:4335 minutes, 43 secondsto yourself you have a possibility to have a CLI uh node catch those one you
35:5135 minutes, 51 secondseven have like an even Even more extreme one is that you can have you know you can have governance running on a layer two to be like that.
36:0336 minutes, 3 secondsSo all transaction is just about governance guys just jumping in um we have an
36:1336 minutes, 13 secondsexample in the ecosystem being around for 4 years you know you will know like catalyst for example had so much to go
36:2136 minutes, 21 secondsfor it but from my point of view the UIUX of catalyst was always a bottleneck
36:2836 minutes, 28 secondsor an impediment or you know so I know that you guys are working on like calculations for for incentives mo you
36:3836 minutes, 38 secondsknow modes and flows of money but don't like I would encourage you guys to keep as much as possible the the thread of
36:4636 minutes, 46 secondsintervention all the way to the yux piggybacking on on what sirin was saying because otherwise we may have just be
36:5436 minutes, 54 secondsreinventing catalyst you know so everything must may be okay like in their case they had the community reviewers they had this and that, but
37:0437 minutes, 4 secondsthings just weren't fluid enough. And I know you guys are not going to build the the UIUX, but it's important like to to
37:1137 minutes, 11 secondspipeline or to to outline the SIPs, for example, that can be used and to contemplate that component into the governance layer.
37:2637 minutes, 26 secondsYeah, definitely. Uh, Quirer, hey guys. Um, despite the the issues
37:3537 minutes, 35 secondswith Catalyst, the Catalyst voting app would have been a a primary source or a a tool to use for the notification
37:4337 minutes, 43 secondssystem, everybody downloaded the app that was involved in Catalyst. And so, I could see that being reuser purpose or at least as a
37:5237 minutes, 52 secondsum something to consider if you're looking for that communication. It's not in wallet, but I mean getting 15 wallet
37:5937 minutes, 59 secondsproviders to all build the same thing, you know, it's going to be tough.
38:0538 minutes, 5 secondsYeah, that's actually why I had my hand up because I was thinking like one of the reasons why things haven't been built in wallets is there's not really a
38:1238 minutes, 12 secondsbusiness case for them to do that for all the governance features and there's so many different ones you have to have.
38:1838 minutes, 18 secondsSure, you target the big ones first, but it's more than just one team or one company building it. it's like multiple
38:2538 minutes, 25 secondshaving to do that. So, that's why I was kind of curious is I love the idea of having um better features in wallets,
38:3338 minutes, 33 secondsbut how could we how could we get that to happen? And do we think DRPS would be willing to spend that much money? Our assumption is that
38:4238 minutes, 42 secondsright now there's already a lot of funding ask and a lot of pressure on the DREPs for this year and so trying to
38:5038 minutes, 50 secondsfind maybe a cheaper solution but maybe that'll just feel like we're putting band-aids on again for the you know
38:5738 minutes, 57 secondsthird round. So I was curious about people's thoughts on that. Yeah. Go ahead.
39:0839 minutes, 8 secondsI I'm going to throw wishful thinking out there as well with with the wallets, you know, like every hard fork. There's work that the DAP builders and or
39:1739 minutes, 17 secondswallets all have to do. It'd be really cool to see proposals go in that actually address uh the work that's
39:2439 minutes, 24 secondsinvolved for those, you know, wallet providers or the other DAP builders as opposed to each one individually maybe knowing about it and submitting a
39:3339 minutes, 33 secondsproposal for it. Whereas if there was a way for a group to submit a proposal on behalf of a part of the ecosystem that will be affected, I think we could make
39:4139 minutes, 41 secondssome progress. But I think again very hard to organize and do and get dreps to vote on.
40:0140 minutes, 1 secondSo based on this brief discussion back and forth I will actually go into assessment. Uh so based on that for
40:1140 minutes, 11 secondsexample last speaker quaser if you can what will would be your most of tier for this uh recommendation
40:2140 minutes, 21 secondsof having yeah more information in wallets themselves and having features
40:2840 minutes, 28 secondsin these wallets. Is it the must? Is it a should or a could like nice to have or
40:3640 minutes, 36 secondsyou wouldn't? You don't see that happening?
40:4140 minutes, 41 secondsAnd was that if you can't answer that then uh Pedro?
40:4440 minutes, 44 secondsOh, I'm sorry, T. I didn't know if that was for me. Um I was answering it in my head quietly. Uh
40:5240 minutes, 52 secondss surprisingly, you know, I went about three months without looking in a wallet. So, let's
41:0041 minutesconsider who's the target here. Is it D-Rups that are wanting this feature or every ADA holder? There's a lot of
41:0841 minutes, 8 secondspeople that are just not active aren't going to see it anyway. So, if we focus on those that are, which would be DPS,
41:1541 minutes, 15 secondsperhaps it is a I don't know a way for it to be in front of DRAPS. But again, you're still going to have all those
41:2341 minutes, 23 secondsother active data holders that want to see it as well. I just don't know that right now in this market
41:3141 minutes, 31 secondshow many people would be looking at it if it were available.
41:3641 minutes, 36 secondsYeah. The the root cause that this um proposal is trying to address is increasing participation in governance.
41:4441 minutes, 44 secondsSo the idea would be if governance information is in the wallet, users who haven't really discovered governance yet
41:5241 minutes, 52 secondsmight and that might help bring more people to delegate to a dre or become a dre. So that was the the reason behind
41:5941 minutes, 59 secondsthis specific feature set because it includes hypopicals.
42:0942 minutes, 9 secondsDo we assume then the mos of chair is a sh not a must
42:1542 minutes, 15 secondsor we go even cold nice to have even well like it's hard because it is like a
42:2442 minutes, 24 secondsa recommendation that has been bubbling up over and over time which means there must be some kind of need for that.
42:3242 minutes, 32 secondsBut is that because the audience that came in these workshops and those who provide surveys they will look at that
42:4242 minutes, 42 secondsor yeah or it's something else?
42:4942 minutes, 49 secondsWell I can add on the the why here. So why do we want uh more participation participation uh in governance?
43:0043 minutesSo um if you are taking the formal perspective from OCE
43:0743 minutes, 7 secondsum they uh measure um participation
43:1343 minutes, 13 secondsum against legitimacy of how the will of the people are or in this case ADA owners are represented.
43:2243 minutes, 22 secondsSo when only a few participate um
43:2943 minutes, 29 secondsuh OSC um we'll say that this for example this election is not legative is
43:3543 minutes, 35 secondsnot representative for the will of the of the
43:4443 minutes, 44 secondslet's say uh people in a nation state you know and it's the same you know in in in governance online also that When
43:5243 minutes, 52 secondsyou don't have ADA owners delegating, we are literally the DREPs are not talking on behalf of the ADA owners.
44:0644 minutes, 6 secondsIs that back to me?
44:0844 minutes, 8 secondsIf it was, I'm sorry. Um, so we're looking at really two things or or one of them being participation in
44:1744 minutes, 17 secondsgovernance and really we're asking for more ADA to participate to be used in voting when we're saying that and a
44:2444 minutes, 24 secondsbyproduct of that is also more individuals, more people involved theoretically because we could get more
44:3044 minutes, 30 secondsADA without people. Um, and that's the proof of stake situation that we're in here.
44:3744 minutes, 37 secondsI don't know how people how do you govern how do you measure it? Is it you know wallets participating or is it total amount of ADA or a combination of both? That's rhetorical at this point. I
44:4644 minutes, 46 secondsthink if we want more it's not so much about in wallet or anything. We have to actually go outside of our bubbles to the places where the ADA is onto the
44:5544 minutes, 55 secondsexchanges and stuff and get actually new ADA into the system itself. And that's where I would try to find some scheme uh
45:0345 minutes, 3 secondsfor the DREP incentive and or some other program. You know, there's a lot of uh um uh absentee ADA, you know, not
45:1345 minutes, 13 secondsparticipating. And that's in my opinion where we're going to have the better uh chance of success in bringing both more ADA and more people in.
45:2645 minutes, 26 secondsYeah, fair point. So by observation on chain measurement we we know that
45:3445 minutes, 34 secondsuh the majority of circulating ADA you know is actually park at a centralized in exchange
45:4245 minutes, 42 secondsand we will if we don't have governance integration let's say those are people
45:4945 minutes, 49 secondsyou know they they will never open a west wallet um
45:5745 minutes, 57 secondsum and uh I don't remember the numbers uh exactly but uh it's a large chunk
46:0546 minutes, 5 secondsthat is not participation in goblins and they're not even staked.
46:1346 minutes, 13 secondsYeah, the more you guys talk the less impact I feel this recommendation will have.
46:2146 minutes, 21 secondsDoes anybody also feel like this is a impact number three? like it is it feels like it's targeting a niche group of
46:2946 minutes, 29 secondspeople and it's not like entire ecosystem who is getting affected when well there is a like the entire
46:3746 minutes, 37 secondsecosystem gets affected when they are seeing some kind of notification but I feel like it rather may be more like an
46:4446 minutes, 44 secondsannoyance and they will try to find a setting to disable that covenant stuff
46:5146 minutes, 51 secondsum so yeah I Does anybody agree with me or do they do they have like some positive
46:5946 minutes, 59 secondselements why this impact should be higher?
47:0247 minutes, 2 secondsI will push back on that table, but let's uh have Lucas first.
47:0747 minutes, 7 secondsUm guys, I feel like I'm going to just come out of nowhere with this, but when we think and and I've been thinking
47:1447 minutes, 14 secondsa bit uh going out to the world and trying to get people to come to web 3, explaining what Cardano is, the civic duty or the possibility of becoming a
47:2347 minutes, 23 secondspart of a network state, you know, this nation where 45 billion ADA is a total terrain that we're ever going to have.
47:3047 minutes, 30 secondsYou have like your plot, which is your pit of ADA that gives you the right to vote. I'm point painting all this because I'm trying to convince people to
47:3947 minutes, 39 secondscome and to vote and to build on Cardano, not because you're going to get staking rewards. By the way, I explained
47:4647 minutes, 46 secondsthose as just inflation correction. So, forget about the rewards or the yield.
47:5147 minutes, 51 secondsIt's your terrain. It's where you want to build. It's a technology that's going to be there for decades or whatever. And
48:0048 minutesyou know so I know that this comes completely outside of the scope of all the variables that and mathematical ones
48:0848 minutes, 8 secondsbut culture is also there should also be there you know and um I'm going to have to drop I'm sorry but uh thanks for for
48:1748 minutes, 17 secondsall your work and I will keep in the loop as much as possible.
48:2248 minutes, 22 secondsThanks. Thanks, Lucas, for your I feel like like I hope that I can continue this bit of discussion with the civics committee because I feel like what civics is about.
48:3448 minutes, 34 secondsYeah, looking forward to see you there. I will be there.
48:3948 minutes, 39 secondsUm yeah, in regards to uh impact
48:4648 minutes, 46 secondsthat was your uh yeah impact. So I I will say that uh bringing um governance
48:5348 minutes, 53 secondsinto the wallet will have a large impact on the governance model in corona existence.
49:0049 minutesFirst off um any any democratic uh frameworks you know uh their legitimacy
49:0849 minutes, 8 secondsis always in the public and in our case it's the ADA owners. They are out there but they are not going to cardono
49:1749 minutes, 17 secondsforum.org or or reading on Reddit and clicking link for tempo.vote and yada
49:2549 minutes, 25 secondsyada is the friction is too large to participate.
49:3149 minutes, 31 secondsum uh like some stats, you know, like if you put a link on a website and it's not
49:3949 minutes, 39 secondscatchy, people spend less than one and a half second to decide if they want to
49:4849 minutes, 48 secondsuh utilize it. And so this is why it needs to bring into the wallet and and
49:5449 minutes, 54 secondsgive the the democrat liquid democracy that we have in Cardono a legimacy and a
50:0050 minutesrepresentative as many wall holders and as much uh yeah you know one one love less one
50:0950 minutes, 9 secondsvote. So the more love less we get engaged the more vote we have the more legitimacy it has.
50:1650 minutes, 16 secondsWhen I compare Discord to Telegram, I always feel like that Telegram is not optimal at all. When if you make wallets
50:2650 minutes, 26 secondsto give every single notification that somebody comes up or if it doesn't and
50:3350 minutes, 33 secondswallet provider start to filter what governance they want to provide people, then we're going to run into I don't know.
50:4450 minutes, 44 secondsWe're going to have more impact. I know I kind of understand that because but is that a good impact we going to have?
50:5150 minutes, 51 secondsI guess have a toggle for governance notifications. Just toggle it off. Yeah.
51:0151 minutes, 1 secondOkay. Well, today we went through I'm going to say that uh two recommendations
51:0951 minutes, 9 secondsover time as synchronously tools are watching or who are still in here. you can join the platform and up down vote.
51:1951 minutes, 19 secondsSo when we join the call on Friday, we will have more uh like another priority
51:2651 minutes, 26 secondslist here. And if you have a more capacity, then open up the assessment and provide impact assessment for each
51:3451 minutes, 34 secondsof these recommendations. You feel you have something to say. adding comments,
51:4151 minutes, 41 secondseverything is is going to be included in the like in the final like analysis of recommendation and it all feeds into it.
51:5151 minutes, 51 secondsyou see most homes. Um, yeah. So, we discussed this a little
51:5951 minutes, 59 secondsand what else we discussed today and then governance this one a little.
52:0852 minutes, 8 secondsSo, this gives an indication or okay maybe it doesn't give indication if it has this beyond the image. Oh, it does.
52:1452 minutes, 14 secondsSo, if you have see these two toes icon this means we discussed it in workshop.
52:2552 minutes, 25 secondsOkay. Does anybody want to have some closing thoughts uh regarding today's
52:3152 minutes, 31 secondsdiscussion? Some remarks? Anything that needs to be taken for the next session we have or some asking deliberation? Now
52:4052 minutes, 40 secondsit's time to share your points and I open it up with zone GB first
52:5052 minutes, 50 secondsbecause you haven't had an ability to share your comment or your your insight of today's session.
53:0453 minutes, 4 secondsYeah. Um JM everyone. So I joined lead and to be honest I've been struggling
53:1153 minutes, 11 secondstrying to understand and like to listen in basically but um I've gone through the process before like I've read
53:2053 minutes, 20 secondsthrough the whole prioritization. I've not read this particular recommendations though. I don't know. But I will go back
53:2753 minutes, 27 secondsto check the the portal and like see what I can maybe
53:3453 minutes, 34 secondsread and maybe even score them on my own time too. So um yeah.
53:4253 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. I want to say thank you to Rind there for explaining um your paper there and um
53:5153 minutes, 51 secondsit's uh I haven't verified the math but I'm sure you're much much better at that than me.
53:5853 minutes, 58 secondsI have to I have to admit it was very much vibe research um but it was I it was Python. So if Python made a mistakes with the math it
54:0554 minutes, 5 secondswas it was not an AI doing math. It was an AI writing Python. Okay.
54:1254 minutes, 12 secondsYeah. Well, well, I I I'm going to say like so you're not the So, what I think is very cool with the
54:2054 minutes, 20 secondsbeyond minimum governance is that because we have been running so many workshops uh and people are actually paying
54:2754 minutes, 27 secondsattention and we see different tools popping up. we see suggestions coming out there and um that is uh let's say so
54:3754 minutes, 37 secondshealthy for let's say moving on in the governance process on Cardono you know we are very very young and and seeing
54:4454 minutes, 44 secondsproposal like you had made Ryan there is um it warms a governor's heart
54:5254 minutes, 52 secondsso uh thank you I know I know we came out from Argentina with a lot of constitutional depth and
54:5854 minutes, 58 secondsuh And I'm so glad that uh beyond got funded and what we actually have like we
55:0655 minutes, 6 secondshave start to uh you know roll the snowball if you understand the snowball will start rolling. So
55:1455 minutes, 14 secondsyeah. Yeah. So so thank you Ryan for explain.
55:1955 minutes, 19 secondsAll right. At the beginning of the call you mentioned IG researchers. Is this the one you talked about the incentivizers?
55:3055 minutes, 30 secondsIt's reward schemes and committee sizes and proof of state governance. I'm trying to find the actual IOG link, but I don't. It's gone. So, I guess I'll give you the archive link.
55:3855 minutes, 38 secondsI have it here. Hold on.
55:4055 minutes, 40 secondsOkay, that's the one. Thank you.
55:4755 minutes, 47 secondsI will add it into the comments. So whenever hopefully in future we add the AI in the application that does this point at comments.
56:0456 minutes, 4 secondsOkay. Well, thank you for um participating and um I will close the call for now.
56:1356 minutes, 13 secondsAll right. Take care guys. Take care everyone. Thanks everyone. Thanks for stepping up. See you.