---
workshop_number: 10
date: 2026-04-24
title: Beyond MVG Workshop -- SPO Governance Friction and CC Metrics
video_url: https://youtu.be/2dHSST-hypA
youtube_description: |
  In this Beyond MVG workshop session, the group focused on SPO participation
  in Cardano governance. SPOs Joker, Adam Dean and Pseudo Scientist discussed
  cold-key friction, missing tooling and documentation for governance voting,
  the lobbyist effect of stake delegation on SPO votes, and whether SPOs are
  the right body to vote on protocol parameters at all. The conversation also
  touched on CC metrics, socialisation requirements before on-chain governance
  actions, and the case for a dedicated social/notification layer for
  governance.
attendees:
  - Tevo Kask
  - Nana
  - Danielle
  - Ken Erik
  - Frederick
  - Joker
  - Adam Dean
  - Pseudo Scientist
  - Seomon
  - Maureen
---

# Workshop #10 Transcript -- SPO Governance Friction and CC Metrics

Raw YouTube auto-caption transcript with original timestamps preserved.
Stored verbatim for machine reading and future reference. The cleaned,
paragraph-formatted version of this conversation is summarised on the
workshops page card; this file is the source of truth for the spoken content.

## Transcript

0:02
Okay, so we have only Frederick who is an external person here. The rest of us are pretty much internal.
0:10
So Frederick, is this your first time joining these workshops or you've been here before? We've had about five already.
0:18
Yeah. So um should be my first time. I I responded to the invitation you sent um
0:26
in um what is the the platform for the hub leads and then I responded.
0:36
Well, thank you. Thank you for honoring and coming in.
0:41
So, um if you can check the chat, Ken has posted a link to um the app we are using for this workshop.
0:51
And then if you click on it, it will take you to if I should share my screen quickly
1:03
and hi Daniel, thanks for joining in. Hello. Yeah, I'm excited.
1:12
Yeah. So, we have only one external person here which is in the person of Frederick. So I'm thinking maybe we can just
1:20
um kick start and then as we go on if people join in uh we'll see how to um carry them along right just so that uh
1:28
we able to do something meaningful at least.
1:31
So Frederick if you click on that link um it would bring you to this site that you're seeing which is um a pretty easy to use.
1:44
Yeah, I'm trying to Hi, thanks for
1:53
Okay, so on this website, Sean, I know you've been you've been I've seen you on this course before.
2:01
Correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. Um, you're right. Mhm.
2:07
Great. So you are pretty familiar with this website and what we are going to do here, right?
2:14
Or yes. Yes.
2:17
All right. So it's Frederick being Frederick. So this this is what we're going to do. Um we have gathered a lot of information over the past few weeks.
2:27
Um we normally did a lot of workshops on using my and then to who is here you know use the data points collected to
2:35
build this beautiful interface that you're seeing and with this we are going to um have a look at some challenges and
2:44
then you know discuss some of these challenges and at the end of the day get to prioritize which ones should probably be you know paid more attention to and
2:53
you know stuff like that. So from the homepage um quickly there's uh the onboarding tab there's the
3:01
identification tab the onboarding is pretty much for if you want to read more about um whatever we are doing you know
3:09
so if you want to understand governance governance management framework that we have uh created you can also have a look at it and also there metrics challenges
3:17
and analysis you can look at it if you want and then identify some recommendations but pretty much these are the steps that we are going to do
3:25
with this particular workshop given that you're new here right so we'll start off with understanding some governance which I believe already you've attended some governance workshop so you pretty have
3:33
you have some pretty much good information or intel about kernel governance at large and then there's this governance measurement framework
3:41
that we came up with um I don't know if you have had a chance to read or take a look at it but it is also something that is there and then there's a metric
3:50
strategies and analysis and then of course we will identify some recommend recommendations and then prioritize submissions for these uh
3:57
recommendations. So down here there are a couple of resources that you could actually use to um you know um widen
4:06
your scope of knowledge so that you're able to contribute meaningfully to this workshop. And you don't necessarily have to be reading these at this point. You
4:14
can read them later on and then you know um provide your uh your recommendations as and when you have the time to do so.
4:23
And um the tools we are using is that we're going to do we're going to look at some challenges I said and then
4:29
challenges if you if you if you're able to identify some recommendations then you submit these recommendations and
4:37
then we look at this recommendation that I received and then we prioritize them as well which is through voting and then
4:45
uh of course we have a lot of workshops that we are doing. This is the seed session. There are about four more to come probably in the next few weeks. So
4:53
if you click here you'll get u access to all the outstanding worship that are yet to be held and then you can participate
5:01
effectively as well. So um we will start off I would like us to start off from looking at some
5:09
challenges that have been identified so far and um if you if you click on challenges you realize that uh you know
5:17
the key governance actors we know so far uh just about four which is a holders gre SPOS and then constitutional
5:25
committee members. So because we have already had you know some workshops already like I mentioned five already uh
5:33
some of the data points have been populated because we have had people come in to share their experience and their observation. So if for instance if
5:41
you look at the ether holder metrics you realize that we have about three challenges here and um these are
5:49
challenges that we can you know choose to um look at and then you know if you have more like a solution that you would
5:56
want to recommend to these challenges you provide it as time goes by right so and then for drefs there are about four
6:04
challenges that are open but if you look at it um Here's how these challenges came up. So
6:11
if you look at the left side, there are some charts here which when you create which when you click gives you um a
6:19
pictorial view of uh you know what is happening I think since January last year to January this year. These are
6:28
these have been um generated by generic uh to give us a pictorial view of what has happened. So for instance, if you
6:34
look at um the delegated voting power among DRS um you know you you you can you can have
6:42
a feel of this chart to understand exactly what is happening in terms of voting power distribution among um DFS right I'll just brush through this
6:51
quickly so that we can look at some of the opening challenges and then discuss some of them and then be able to also make some recommendations if possible
7:00
and then uh there is a coefficient for Grefs which GF to control governance actions. This is also here and a couple
7:08
more here. Right? So these are all challenges that are open that we are going to look at. Uh if you have enough time then for SPOS's
7:18
there are two open challenges now that you can look at. So this is also the metric that you can look at to you know
7:27
sort of um give yourself a fair view of what is happening and then be able to recommend if you have any and then
7:35
there's a CC which also has three so far. Right. So now um having had a look
7:43
at these challenges uh there is uh if you if you hop over to the prioritize there are already some um
7:52
recommendations that have come through so far but for today some of them have been discussed already you know on course some of them are also yet to be
8:01
discussed and then some of them are still receiving votes which is up votes and also down votes like I mentioned at the end of the day there's going to be
8:09
there's going to be the need to vote on which recommendation should be prioritized and which one should not necessarily be prioritized. So it is
8:17
important that we pay attention and contribute through um the various steps.
8:22
So um I would like us to start off from the challenges and um you know so maybe
8:30
today you tell me um I mean my team I have uh
8:36
I have Ken, I have Danielle, I have um I have Min on standby. Um which challenge
8:44
do you guys think we should focus on today?
8:53
Yeah. Uh uh so so I've been with a few um
9:00
those workshops. Uh I would uh perhaps you can look at the
9:05
SPO and CC um metrics this run. If you want to I don't know if anyone in the the crowd here are stake pool operators.
9:17
Um I see um yeah some new names here. That's
9:24
cool. Um and if you are not that's not uh it's not so important. Uh just you as
9:32
an ADA owner also can give recommendation as well.
9:42
There we go. Great.
9:47
Perfect. Um to I see that if I could suggest in a prioritiz page um go into
9:55
that page and open the filters for the recommendations based on the last workshop uh filters
10:03
are above um at the top of the like the list of prioritizations. So if you scroll up see that the filters button on
10:11
the right side and next to the most votes and I added the challenges uh part of
10:19
like filtering. So if you are like sticking these boxes and maybe what would be cool too for the first few
10:27
maybe minutes is we use this filtering mechanic to find what kind of interest you like Eric mentioned let's target
10:35
SPOS's for example and the first category if you filter out SPOS's and then you look at like specific challenges this is like tags but the
10:44
category is above so the tags are different from the categories But this will help to also see that even
10:52
if right now you selected SPO tax there are only two uh like recommendations and
10:59
if this doesn't address none of them doesn't address then maybe it's a good point to create a recommendation right
11:06
now and use the up voting or down voting this way we will able to like collectively perhaps change the sorting
11:15
considering how many people are in this call we could Yeah, like make a sentiment for any item to be the top prioritized thing.
11:29
Great. Um,
11:32
thanks for um that input. So um do we all agree then to um focus on SPS for this call?
11:41
If yes, uh let's let's uh let's uh dive into it. Um
11:48
um so on the identify page uh you see a s chart there it's uh
11:57
you will see uh the spometric and see a start there and um as a stake pool operator um
12:06
uh what does this chart tell you and and and uh what kind of recommendation would
12:14
you guys do to uh uh make this uh short look
12:21
better. Um I don't know if anyone uh Joker, have you been around uh any
12:27
previous workshop and and um and like been following us through all the work?
12:36
No, this is my uh first workshop playing with you guys. So I'm kind of uh looking at this data for the first time.
12:46
Oh, nice, nice. Welcome. Fresh eyes on the topic. We love it. Um,
12:55
uh, in regards to the report, uh, so far we have identified that it is, uh, as a staple operator,
13:05
uh, difficult to participate, I would say it's a friction to participate in governance.
13:12
And one of those we have identified is that every time Joker wants to
13:19
participate in governance, he have to dig deep in his drawer and uh and uh get
13:27
his cold keys credential and he don't like that very much especially if he has a block producing node. Isn't that right, Joker?
13:36
That is absolutely right. Not to mention that's just like the tip of the iceberg.
13:42
You know, there's there's a lot of other things that make it highly complicated.
13:47
And uh you know, it it requires a significant amount of time. You know,
13:54
it's not just that it requires the cold key, but it requires a significant amount of time. And if you get any of
14:01
the steps wrong, you know, it's a complete nightmare trying to figure out where it went wrong.
14:08
U would you be kind to elaborate that that you said the list is long so um I put forward perhaps something like
14:16
keskis and um catalyst keys um uh you have you have perhaps a other
14:24
perspective on let's say uh because as you can see on the chart uh stake pool operators they
14:33
let's say jump on it in the last minute very often and to um
14:42
to participate in governance particularly on those that are required by uh SPOS's to pass.
14:50
Um we can see that out that the always abstain basically those SPOS's who don't want to have anything to do with
14:58
governance uh or choose not to participate is increasing
15:06
and um uh yeah um uh I was wondering if you
15:13
like have any recommendation to the report as an SPO like how can we improve governance uh on Cardono.
15:27
Uh honestly, my biggest recommendation would be to just make it simpler for the
15:33
SPO operator. Uh you know, I understand that the view a lot of times is that uh
15:40
the SPO community is super highly technical developers, but that's that's
15:46
not always the case. Um, so a lot of the times they're telling you, hey, you got to do it, you know, this way. You got to
15:54
follow this step, then this step, then this step. And, you know, if you don't know that, then you got to go out and
16:02
find help, right? Or let's say you created your wallet through the CLI. Um,
16:10
and so you're just using an air gap machine instead of a ledger. Now, that's a whole another level of complication
16:20
and there is no official script to be able to write that transaction. So, then it's okay. Well, are you going to use a
16:28
script that was created by somebody in the community and you just have to trust it or are you going to create your own
16:34
to be able to interact with that? And so I I think when you add that complexity into it along with the amount of time
16:43
that it really takes to dive into each one of these topics and to truly think about how it's going to affect the
16:50
protocol long term that you know you're dissuading people that don't have a large amount of stake from participating.
17:04
Well very very fair point. I I I just out of curiosity needs to follow. So uh you said that um
17:13
um you need a certain level of knowledge.
17:16
Um where where would you go to acquire such uh knowledge and
17:24
and what do you think of the quality of um where you are going to look for knowledge?
17:33
Uhhuh.
17:34
Well, I mean, that's kind of the problem, right? Um, now maybe I'm just ignorant to the fact of it, but I I
17:41
don't know where there's any clear documentation even. Um, when I say that you just have to, you know, go find the
17:49
knowledge. What I mean is you just you literally have to go out and do the research yourself to find out what's
17:55
going on. I I haven't seen any complete uh documentation
18:02
for every you know type of situation for an SPO. Now let's say you want to spin up a Cardono state pool. There's plenty of documentation when it comes to that.
18:13
Hey, you can use uh this. There's multiple different guides you can use.
18:18
But when it comes to actually participating um with governance,
18:24
can you point me to a guide for Cardano SPL?
18:29
Just just out of curiosity, like on a level from let's say 1 to 10, how how deep in the wheat to put do you consider yourself joker?
18:42
I consider myself uh what do you mean by that?
18:47
actively participating with governance or do you mean just actively participating in the protocol because those are two different things.
18:58
Yeah. As a fake pool operator you are keeping updated uh I believe you are playing around with sunset and you know
19:05
hanging around Mike um and uh stuff like that. So I I from my understanding I would like fairly
19:14
guess that you are pretty uh like if you like pretty deep in the in the game both from a technical
19:23
perspective and and um and the governance
19:30
perhaps I'm wrong but that was that was my guess.
19:34
No, I mean you're accurate. uh like so I stay up to date on the node versions and and I update all of them. Uh you know
19:44
there like I said there's ample documentation on that. Um so again uh is this being put on YouTube or anything?
19:57
Yes. This is a public.
20:00
Okay. So I I just want to be careful how I phrase stuff. You know what I if it's for public consumption or private consumption.
20:07
So what I'm saying is if you want SPOS's to take a more active role, you actually
20:16
need to give them the tools to make this a lot easier,
20:22
right? Uh you have guild operator scripts that people can use to go set up things like a stake pool to set up DB
20:31
sync to set up all of these different uh services that you need on Cardano.
20:40
However,
20:42
you can't find that when it comes to voting, right? So that's what I mean.
20:48
Like if you want there to be mass SPO voting,
20:54
you need to make documentation for it and you need to put it on the GitHub.
21:00
You need to put it in guild operators.
21:04
Those are the places that people are looking for it. I'm sure the information's out there, but it's all segmented.
21:14
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
21:17
Um I I know like IOG they have this SPO calls and um yeah discord
21:28
u do you think it's sufficient to uh let's say that's where SPOS's get together or should there be some other
21:36
way SPOS's could um share their findings uh
21:43
or should we have one one specific specific place for let's say SPO on the internet.
21:54
Yeah, I think that the uh IO Discord is is a great spot for everyone to get together, you know, and them to be able
22:03
to put out links there. They have operators channel. I know that they do the monthly calls and you get a lot of
22:10
SPOS's that join those monthly calls. So that would be a good spot for it to get foot traffic and for people to see it.
22:19
Um but again,
22:23
you know, I I think that's the biggest problem is just the fact of when you run a block producing pool, you do not want
22:32
to have any security risk. You don't want to risk your validation getting messed up. Um, so you're very cautious about doing any of that. Um, now again,
22:46
just speaking personally, I haven't looked at the documentation in 3 months.
22:51
That's why I started this with, you know, maybe there's something new out there now that I don't know about.
23:00
Okay. And I Yeah. No, sorry, Ken. I I see that pseudo scientist also has his hand raised. I want to acknowledge him.
23:08
Maybe he has something he wants to add to what Lee is saying. I see though coming.
23:15
Good morning everybody. Am I coming through? Yes, you're coming through.
23:20
Beautiful. Yeah, traveling. So things are a little interesting for me right now joining on mobile. But I think uh
23:27
Joker highlighted an interesting thing that you know I think there's a built-in assumption that stake pool operators are
23:35
highly technically inclined. But that's not always the case. And the fact that SPOS's are involved in a voting role in
23:43
governance kind of highlights that the people that are running these state pools are qualified to make assessments on parameter changes and things of that
23:52
nature. And what we see through the numbers is that there isn't a high interest in a multitude of stakeful
24:01
operators in governance. So I think ultimately we might have run into the fact that the assumption that SPOS's
24:08
might have been the best role to to make those determinations might have been a little
24:17
uh incorrect. Um but you know I would say that you know there is a a multitude
24:24
of different types of stake pools and levels of security. For me I have an air gap machine and I have my cold keys
24:31
there. To me, it's kind of like a very complicated hardware wallet, you know.
24:36
So, for the fact of maintaining security, I don't care uh if I want to place a vote that I'm going to go
24:43
through my security protocol to ens uh to secure my keys. That's something that
24:51
uh you know that uh it's kind of inherent with the way that you have set up your
24:57
pool. and you know Kaladus keys are a good option I think but I don't think the technical barrier isn't necessarily
25:06
uh the obstacle here um it's interest participation and again if we just want to blindly activate participation in
25:15
SPOS's you know the question again opposed to DREP voting is the quality of the decision being made so we can
25:23
incentivize SPOS like we do the other bodies of governance But do we just want
25:30
SPOS's voting or do we want the people that have the best say in parameter changes making these decisions?
25:41
Yeah. I I Adam uh are you able to speak Adam because I see you put forward some um comments there in the in the chat. Uh would you elaborate on those?
25:54
No. Yeah. I was just saying I I'm disagreeing with this premise that oh the SPOS's weren't a good group to be responsible for uh Cardano governance.
26:03
Uh that's because we designed a system where they've been marginalized and pushed to the edges and and not asked to make any sort of meaningful changes or
26:12
votes. Um and so now SPOS's don't know when they need to vote outside of a hard fork. Do
26:20
you know like we buried which handful of protocol parameters SPOS's are allowed to have a a say in within a 30-page
26:28
constitution document. Uh and then you have to read that constitution to figure out which protocol parameters you you're supposed to vote for or required to vote
26:36
for and then look at every single governance action and figure out if one of those protocol parameters are actually uh adjusted.
26:43
you know, uh, and you know, to echo what Joker said that the tooling is not there to say, hey, SPO, there's a protocol
26:52
parameter or there's a vote on chain that needs your action. Um, and so, how do I know? And then because this has
27:01
only happened, I think once or twice in the in the entire year and a half that we've been doing this governance thing that we've actually needed FPOS's to vote. Um, you know, why should I care?
27:10
Why should I be deeply involved? It seems like it's nothing but a run on the treasury is all that we developed governance for.
27:20
Yeah, thanks Adam for adding on to that.
27:26
Yeah, just a clarifying point there. I'm not saying SPOS's aren't a qualified body. I think that was a built-in
27:33
assumption in the governance aspect that was assumed before we had any measurable information to see what SPO participation could look like, you know.
27:44
So, um I mean the FPOS's in my opinion are the
27:52
most agile responsive group that exists in Cardano. But we have not we developed a governance system where they don't
28:00
actively participate. They participate once a year, twice a year. Um so of course they're not finger on the pulse
28:08
of all these little back and forth discussions and and everything else going on uh because we haven't had them
28:16
be meaningful participants in the governance system that we designed. So I think it's unfair to say oh well like look at how they've reacted. So I'm I'm
28:24
glad we didn't go that way or you know we we didn't have measures. SPOS have upgraded within days the entire network
28:32
to get it ready for hard forks and and when bugs have been discovered and everything else. So they are 110% a qualified body. We just marginalize them as a a voting entity within the system.
28:44
Well, as as a stake pull operator myself, you know, I would say that many of the people that do care about those
28:51
parameters are also DREPs or have the option to become D-Reps. So the fact that representation doesn't exist at all
28:59
levels, we have the mechanism to do that and I think deciding on how that participation happens, I think we're looking towards those solutions. So
29:08
again, I'm not saying that SPOS's are not the qualified body. I would say that the governance as organized was kind of
29:15
making assumptions before we actually had how that process actually takes place established and tested. So if we
29:23
knew that hey SPOS's don't have a good communication line to understand when their votes actually are required you
29:32
know we could make those those changes before we launched governance and created the aspect where where treasury withdrawals are the primary function. So
29:41
I I think we're actually Adam we're mostly in agreement. Um my criticism is that the governance process took on
29:49
assumptions that really didn't play out to its real uh its intended outcome.
29:59
Well, I I think there there's another facet there that you're ignoring, which is that there were cries about conflict of interest even before governance went
30:08
live while it was being developed that how dare an SPO also serve as a DRREP or
30:15
also be on the constitutional committee because, you know, they're already an SPO and they already have this power within the ecosystem. And so I I
30:23
wouldn't be surprised for one if a lot of SPOS's didn't want to pay yet another 500 ADA deposit to have to cast two
30:30
votes with two different sets of keys to to Lee's earlier point. Um and then also to avoid this perception amongst the
30:38
community that might harm their stake pool operation if they were viewed as being a bad actor because they they have conflicts of interest and they're
30:45
serving within multiple roles. So uh I think SPTO's kind of got the short end of the stick on on multiple fronts when it comes to government.
30:56
Uh you are mentioning a very interesting uh topic there Adam De know so SPOS's they are incentivized uh financially uh to attract delegation.
31:09
Um we had some feedback that um some SPOS's uh might
31:18
uh not vote because they are afraid of losing uh uh delegation.
31:28
Uh what what do you think about that? I mean, yeah, definitely right. Like,
31:37
there's things that I can say as Adam Dean that I would never put out from one of my companies because it might hurt my company's profit center, right? And so,
31:48
SPOS's are actually small businesses.
31:50
So, why would they take a risk and and get involved and and be part of this conversation and drama uh that might harm their business?
32:00
um just because you know uh so yeah there's there's definitely that does paint a good picture of one of the
32:10
dangers of all like everybody always shouts incentives you know if we do incentives we'll get more voting. Um but as soon as you incentivize now there's
32:18
financial repercussions to every time you say yes or no on something. Uh so that creates more conflicts potentially than it solves.
32:28
Yeah. Um this is the side quest here but so um like if you compare it to traditional
32:36
let's say democratic values um and you're going to find like the SPOS's
32:43
there uh there is actually um let's say
32:50
not any let's say equal out there um as as far as I have found it means that's
32:59
we we like to say that SPOS's are like the security like the police in the uh
33:06
in the ecosystem but um the police is not uh um they they don't need uh the
33:14
delegation and when they arrest someone they do not lose their uh let's say funding if you understand
33:25
perhaps like a little bit far But could could we like say that perhaps SPO voting might be like
33:34
um architectural um mishap um in in the ecosystem like by design? I
33:42
don't know. I'm just throwing out an idea here.
33:48
Yeah, we see it every time there is a vote that comes up, right? Oh, like such and such SPO hasn't voted for the new
33:56
constitution. Move your delegation. Such and such SPO hasn't hasn't voted for the hard fork or hasn't upgraded their nodes. Move your delegation. Um so yeah,
34:07
like we we have already even historically before governance put SPOS into this position where you know if
34:15
they don't go with the status quo they risk harming their financial bottom line. Uh and so it's unsurprising that
34:24
when we ask everybody to go into the IO discord and IO advises that everybody should upgrade to the latest node, we don't get any push back because people
34:32
are afraid of losing their financial benefit uh you know their their delegation if they don't get with the
34:40
program. Uh so yeah, there's a serious element of like outsized lobbyist power within the ecosystem in general uh that
34:48
I think we haven't really ever seriously considered or thought about.
34:56
Nice. Nice. Uh Sudo.
34:59
Yeah. I mean on the flip side of that isn't that also a potential compromise on the role of the SPO itself if a
35:07
decision that might be in the best benefit of the chain itself but would result in the loss of a mass delegation
35:15
because the mass amount of delegators do not approve of that right doesn't that offset the technical
35:23
um understanding that an operator might have you know for me I operate a state pool mostly because my backend services
35:31
as a developer rely on talking to the blockchain. So the SPO is just like,
35:36
hey, I already have the node. I'm here to secure the network. The financial incentive of making rewards isn't my
35:43
primary motivating factor. Um, so on the flip end of that, any incentive that we
35:50
already have in place kind of could be a point of compromise for that role. And
35:57
as we have seen based on the data that has actually taken place, if we require SPOS's to participate and participation
36:04
has been historically low, I think that's something to consider that the overall structure might need some reworking. Maybe not the fact that
36:13
they're not qualified or anything, but that the structure we are forced to participate within doesn't allow us to have quality decisions come out of that.
36:25
Yeah. Um just like on a high level. So like when you look at the ADA owner uh
36:32
DREPs, SPOS's and CT members, they are currently the only one that has a
36:40
financial penalty if they uh
36:47
uh how can perhaps do a controversial votal for example. Uh Joker. you have some uh
36:56
some spicy stuff to add to the latest debater recommendation.
37:05
Um I don't have that much spicy stuff to add except for the fact that I I kind of agree with a lot of this sentiment here.
37:13
Um outside of the tooling, I I think that that is a lot of the hesitancy, right?
37:21
Um because number one uh governance has a bad reputation right now. Everyone feels like the treasury is just being drained.
37:30
Um but number two is you know a lot of SPOs's don't want to be politicians. They they don't want to
37:38
get involved in this Twitter drama or this Reddit drama, right? Um so they
37:44
would sooner just stay back and keep their business the way it is. Um because the moment they step out there, they
37:52
have much more to lose than they do to gain. Um but again, I think that might
37:58
be a a messaging thing. And it was just maybe we need to reiterate now that everything's been ironed out what things
38:08
the SPO actually votes on because to my understanding at this point is it's just protocol changes. Um which really should
38:17
not be that much of a topic that people disagree on, right? Uh it's not like
38:26
we're awarding funds or anything. So, if the conversation is how do we get more SPOS's to participate,
38:35
um, you know, maybe we need to change the messaging chain up a little bit and and have them realize that, hey, this is
38:43
strictly protocol. And I think that if we were to build something into the node, right, to let them know that, hey,
38:53
this is going on, this votes coming up,
38:56
um, and again, put it in the operator's Discord for IO, put it everywhere that
39:03
the operator goes and checks documentation on when to update their mode. Why why we don't do that is beyond me.
39:15
But if we want them to participate, that's where we should be putting it,
39:19
where they're looking, because the vast majority of people are not going into governance to find out what the latest
39:26
drama is. They're they're trying to avoid most of that.
39:33
Yeah. U well said, uh, Joker. Uh, Adam.
39:38
Yeah. So my what I wanted to say before uh reoccurred to me um and this is something that I've brought up somewhat
39:45
in some of CIP discussions and and things like that, but uh there was a decision made at some point at some
39:52
level above my pay grade uh that it was too dangerous to add a default yes
39:58
option for voters. So we have an option where every voter can default to no always. Uh we have an option where
40:07
voters can default to abstain always. Uh but we don't have an option where people can be yes by default and only cast
40:16
explicit nos. And this is one of the only governance voting systems in the world I've ever heard of where you have
40:23
to actually go and pay a pole tax every time you want to share your opinion as part of governance. You have to pay at
40:30
least a transaction fee in order to make your voice heard. Um, so there's there
40:38
needs to be enough reason for you to actually go out and say yes because you're no by default. So if if you don't care or or don't want something to pass,
40:46
there's no incentive to actually come out and explicitly say that because by just being inert and not taking action,
40:52
you are essentially signaling that you know your level of interest or involvement or or whether or not you
41:00
care that that protocol parameter gets changed. Um, so requiring people to pay
41:07
in order to vote means that I'm only going to go out there and get active if I actually really care about this. And it and I do believe it's firmly in the
41:15
best interest of Cardano because by just not voting, I can stop something from passing essentially.
41:25
Nice. Nice. Um uh another thing here is like uh is to like collect recommendations.
41:34
So we have you Adam, we have Joker here.
41:39
Um and Sudo, who else is SPO here?
41:46
Oh, we got the um what kind of like if you had like the superpower uh to decide uh what
41:55
recommendation uh would you uh give uh for change
42:04
to in regards to SPOS's and governance? I will I will put you on the spot,
42:14
Joker.
42:18
you're uh you're making me think. I was standing here thinking um
42:25
you know this is going to be uh controversial but I I would say that
42:33
outside of arts works. Um, you know, I think that should really be the only pro
42:40
protocol that, you know, SPO should be voting on is when we're actually changing the node and how the protocol
42:49
functions. Um, outside of that, I I don't think SPO should be involved um
42:58
in any other way. Uh, just my personal opinion, right? That's as me we um so
43:07
that's what I feel like I feel so like our job is to protect the network make sure the network is healthy enough to
43:14
grow make sure the nodes are online and make sure everything's safe and black production stays up um outside of that
43:23
limited role um I don't think we should be going off and being politicians is my opinion I
43:31
think that that's better left with uh the politicians.
43:37
I I appreciate the honesty there. Uh Joker uh su
43:44
Yeah, kind of to echo that, you know, I think that I stated it before that the assumption that SPOS's were probably a good technical layer for for analyzing
43:54
these parameter changes was kind of built into our governance model. Um whether or not that's the case, I mean that that can change every time we cycle
44:03
out SPOS's. So that that's going to depend. But what's interesting is that the users of the software are voting on
44:11
the patches that undercut the underlying security of the software they're using. So if you were doing software, a soft,
44:20
if you're a software company, you wouldn't canvas your users for patch upgrades. You would have people that are
44:28
security-minded and all of that analyzing and you know you might have bug reports from the community that are submitted but the community itself isn't
44:36
voting on the security patches that happen uh that the underlying software in uh ingests and it's kind of
44:44
interesting that we're you know for the node version we're having or or any of these things that uh you know SPOS's are
44:52
kind of involved there um cuz technically we vote Oh, based on what infrastructure we decide to run, right?
44:59
There's going to be a minimum node version that we can use to support the current uh protocol. Um, and we
45:07
technically vote by our actual infrastructure. We can decide, hey, you know what, Cardano said we need to use
45:14
1061, but you know what? I'm staying on 1014. and we create a fork by de facto
45:21
you know by just not um changing our hardware. So considering that these
45:28
things are not likely to take place anytime soon, the current recommendations I would suggest is
45:36
signaling maybe in the wallets and other tooling, you know, providing more scripts. Um, the people that are doing ridiculous CLI, multi-IG and and
45:46
scriptbased uh management likely have the understanding of how to vote and
45:52
build the CLI commands, right? So um more attention should be put towards non-technical SPO users to get the
46:01
signaling that hey this is a parameter that you vote on um and maybe this happens at the wallet level. So
46:08
coordinating with the top wallets to have some kind of signaling built into the actual wallet interfaces to kind of
46:15
alert um alert the SPOS's and you know make that mechanism a little easier to to integrate with because if you're
46:22
running CLI and air gap machines you probably don't have many issues building a script and you know dealing with the
46:30
CLI directly. But if you're looking at uh what's Yeah. Uh anyway, you know, in
46:40
the future, if we're trying to onboard new SPOS and have more non-technical users uh participate in the securing of
46:47
the blockchain, you know, um I really don't think the technicality is the barrier here, right? I I really do don't
46:56
think that's a big thing. It's creating the desire for people to participate in governance. And you know, Adam brought
47:04
up a bunch of reasons why people aren't incentivized necessarily to stick their
47:09
uh head out in the water, but um yeah, I I would say that uh
47:19
yeah, the technical things aren't necessarily an issue. And you know we we are actually voting on so many of the
47:26
protocol level things based on our infrastructure that we decide to run.
47:32
Uh so we have in this tool uh you see table he is hammering on the keyboard
47:38
here and um you have I pinned it to the top here the link by the way for you
47:44
guys coming in late um you have the option to go to prioritize
47:52
and you also have the possibility to add recommendation if there is something there not possible uh that you don't see there and then you
48:01
have the possibility to upvote and down vote. Um yeah, this here uh what is most
48:10
important. Uh it will be very much appreciated if you guys uh tap the link there. Um if there's something um
48:20
recommendation uh not seen um add it in there and and and give you a vote. Uh
48:26
and what we will do with that data is that uh in the beyond minimum governance
48:33
uh report we're going to put forward a bunch of recommendations in regards to governance.
48:42
Um we will see perhaps if we make it we can make a CIP for some um contribute
48:48
there. uh or at least we will uh highlight in the report what we
48:56
beyond a reasonable doubt um uh needs to address uh when it comes to governance.
49:04
I'm I'm talking over my head now Daniel. No, that's all about right.
49:13
So uh rest assurers uh you might be to a lot of workshops um but um obviously this is the one of one of
49:21
those that really really comes. So thank you for participating.
49:34
Let me see here. Just following up uh in the chat here.
49:40
I we were supposed to look into CC metrics uh but since we had such a good
49:48
vibes here and we had SPOS's presence and um so good debate um we pushed on
49:58
it. Uh we're going to do uh more workshops um and um for those of you are interested
50:07
we're going to cover the CC um topics but you can also as center
50:15
uh contribute you can go in there and look at the um construction committee
50:22
metrics uh they have some pine charts there as Well, I don't know if you are possible to show it the table. There we go.
50:34
Um,
50:37
so what we uh uh what we have um
50:44
chosen to do is to measure how quick CC members vote on different governance actions.
50:54
Um we have also um looked into um
51:01
because there's the abstain rate um
51:07
and also looked into um the amount of uh
51:14
puts down when the CC member votes. Um if you would kind to do uh some ASIC uh
51:22
recommendation here. I know Adam Dean is here. You are ICC member. I see B here.
51:31
Who else?
51:33
You guys have been uh you're like the OGs in governance on Cardano participating running
51:41
um pioneer shops and stuff like that. Um now we have like had governance running
51:48
uh for more than a year. Um they have um
51:55
from the feedback that we got they are identify that there is a lack of
52:02
information and sometimes very difficult to evaluate the continuality of that. Um
52:09
and that's why you see a difference in uh in times uh time responding time it
52:16
takes for CC member to respond. Um and uh one thing that's also been echoed
52:23
not only by amongst DREPs uh but uh particularly also among uh Kano constitution members that there is a
52:32
lack of um compensation um and that makes it difficult uh to let's
52:40
say prioritize uh all the work and I think the last one on top of my head
52:47
Some of the uh some of CC members also gave us feedback that um
52:56
some uh some um some issues some something they have to vote on perhaps contain
53:05
technical difficulties and stuff like that and they do not have let's say uh access to
53:13
uh pay or uh ask a third party for um um what do you
53:21
callme subject matter expert opinion on it if you guys have some recommendation
53:29
there um um it will be nice see
53:38
okay uh am I missing anything here now Daniel Nana
53:46
M nothing from my perspective. Um in terms of timing, the project ends in
53:54
June. So that's when the final like report with recommendations are coming out. We already have over a hundred
54:02
different ideas coming up from the community. So we're looking at those collectively. Uh super cool to see so many different things and it's most
54:10
valuable when you hear from the people who are dealing with it directly. So, I love hearing from the SPOS's uh because
54:16
I'm not an SPO. So, help help us see what's important.
54:22
Keep an eye out the chat. That's very
54:32
out uh for the project.
54:36
Yeah, thank you. Uh I think you chopped up a little bit at the end there,
54:40
Danielle. Uh but I think you said that you will we need we'll put a link tree in the chat here. So there you go. I was
54:46
just guessing. Uh I see you uh there uh can uh we may uh we can create a new uh
54:54
working group with civics committee to coordinate the solution to the problems being filtered. So um
55:02
uh uh in the in the team here we have been debating like um
55:10
where let's say to push uh the recommendation that we have and how can we have the community let's say pick up
55:20
on those recommendation either is a CIP or
55:24
u I'm a voting member in the civics So I
55:31
uh have shield uh the possibility because civics committee they are aligned uh and have working groups like
55:40
uh just starting a dre compensation or compensation. So that's cover something that we have disclosed. Um so yeah um we
55:49
uh definitely going to bring um the report to the the service committee um and and um interfect board. Uh yeah,
56:01
Joker.
56:04
Yeah, I sorry I'm I'm at work. Sorry about the background noise. Um but I just wanted to bring up a point too about participation.
56:15
Um,
56:17
why don't we have a social app for governance?
56:22
If if we really want participation, why is this not at everyone's fingertips? Um, and I I don't mean to be so frank,
56:30
but I if we truly want participation and we want people involved, why is this not on their cell phone?
56:39
Why can I not log on to a Cardano social app and see what the hot topic going on
56:46
right now is and how many up votes it has and how many down votes it has and then all the stuff people cares about
56:54
surfaces right to the top instead of having to go to intersect log in
57:02
go through this dashboard you know so that's uh that would be my number one complaint that we don't have a social
57:11
app for governance. And we're a year into this and every time I bring it up,
57:16
everyone goes, "It's complicated. We're going to get there." But how do we get participation? It's kind of like a chicken or the egg thing to me. Sorry.
57:25
Just wanted to throw it out there.
57:28
Uh yeah. Well uh so from a research research uh point of view uh when
57:36
participation uh is difficult to do overwhelming and so on um that is
57:44
identified as um huge uh friction uh not only by our research but it's seen in Dows and other directly uh and we also
57:53
have um references to OC uh election observer which also uh elaborates that
57:59
and um it is um good succession and I think Adam Dean can follow up because I
58:08
think that's something you have in I don't know like is it been in your bullyard for for um for some time isn't it or am I just wildly guessing?
58:21
No, no, no. I'm not going to come up here and like shill my project. I already did that in the chat. Uh but I did want to say uh that you know like
58:30
there are there is already uh the reach your people RP platform by Neil's from Hazelpool. Uh so I am a member there and
58:39
I get telegram notifications every time a new governance action comes online. Um we have like gov actionbot that uh Alex
58:48
and and Thomas from NVX have been working on uh that does Twitter posts every time there's a new gov action. I think there's also a Discord bot inside
58:56
the Intersect or a Discord channel in the Intersect um Discord. So, there's definitely ways that like you could have that
59:05
notification at your fingertips, but I think what they're all missing is none of them currently show like for an SPO perspective, you need to vote on this
59:14
one. Um, and particularly I I think that's because again we've only like if you look at it, we've only had like
59:22
three governance actions that SPOS's were actually required to vote on. So nobody's ever like kind of gone to the depth of uh figuring out, you know, how
59:30
to how to alert particular groups that their vote might be required. Uh, but that that could be a great feature ad for something like RIP or uh the the
59:39
Constitution or the the Gov Action bot or or something like that like, hey, who needs to vote on this? SPOS and DREPs.
59:44
So you could get notifications every time a new gov action comes online and just quickly go this requires SPOS's and
59:52
DREPs, this requires CC and DRPS, this require CC and SPOS's. Um so that way uh
59:59
you know we could get that in a more decentralized fashion into people's fingertips. Uh because you know like yeah like a a mobile app would be great
1:00:07
but who's going to develop it? Who's going to pay for it? Who's going to keep funding it? um you know uh too often I
1:00:14
think we we always are inclined to make it somebody else's job to provide those tools that uh the ecosystem needs uh and
1:00:22
then it ends up becoming Intersect or IOG or CF or somebody else that has to do it because nobody else will do it essentially.
1:00:32
Okay. Isn't that what Intersect's for though? Isn't that their exact role?
1:00:38
Well, yeah, but I mean, so they they already send an email blast uh with updates about governance actions and stuff. They they have a channel in the
1:00:45
Discord. Um, so I I think those resources are there. It's probably just not advertised well enough maybe.
1:00:57
Yeah. And they also have the newsletter uh which uh they use they they have a section there that usually covers all governance
1:01:06
action governance related stuff. Um yeah uh maybe that's a a takeaway. Sorry real
1:01:13
quick can Eric for you guys on the civics committee though is like when a gov action comes online do you know put out something from like the intersect
1:01:21
civics committee of like hey here's who needs to vote here's when voting ends.
1:01:25
Um, so everybody that might be impacted can at least add it to their calendar to know like kind of when it's time to to go out and take action.
1:01:35
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Uh, say Joker, you still have your hands up.
1:01:42
Um,
1:01:46
no, sorry, that's technical difficulties. I forgot this application doesn't take it down for you. My apologies.
1:01:53
That's live on the mobile platform. No worries. Uh table your hands up.
1:01:58
I noticed that many platforms eventually or not all but are kind of turning into like a subscribe model or in a sense
1:02:07
that you want to be involved and then automating the channel of information
1:02:13
sharing. Um so I'm just wondering I try to craft that kind of recommendation but
1:02:20
what is the expected outcome from whatever tool we're using or the Frankenstein standard which we are all
1:02:28
listening is is it like yeah are we looking for some kind of consistent blockchain where we can read messages
1:02:37
but we would need to make it cheap so I guess somewhere on Hydra but on others or we are looking for something which we
1:02:44
and subscribe to and we have like sophisticated notification system. So which directions or we're looking at like having our own Twitter in general?
1:02:55
Uh so which directions here was like the outcome that we are actually looking for
1:03:02
with that recommendation for all of them?
1:03:07
I I think it's probably like a a little bit of an all the above. Um, one of the interesting things that was um, at least
1:03:15
present in the the previous constitution and and now no longer being in the constitutional committee, I'll be honest, I haven't I'm not as familiar with the current constitution as I was
1:03:24
with the first draft of the constitution. Um, but there was this requirement that before you do a
1:03:31
governance action, you have to somehow socialize it. But that was never really defined what would count as proper socialization.
1:03:41
Um, so, uh, and I think that's what's led to probably a lot of the friction in governance so far is a lot of people
1:03:48
just see the the onchain action as the first thing, uh, the first indicator that governance is about to happen uh,
1:03:58
and is something that they should be paid attention to. And then all of a sudden, they have this like 30-day ticking clock where they have to absorb
1:04:06
all that information. there's no chance to iterate or provide any feedback aside from voting no with a rationale. Um, so
1:04:15
yeah, like it there could be something there where maybe it's just as simple as like if you're thinking about putting an
1:04:22
action on chain, you must publish like a simple metadata transaction that says like I'm considering a governance action
1:04:30
and here is the link to it. Um, so that way people know where the um
1:04:37
where the socialization platform is, but we're not locked into a single one. You know, I saw mention like gov tool tried it. Uh, CG gov tries it. Like everybody is doing their own little flavor of it.
1:04:48
There's the Cardano forums. There's Twitter. There's all these other places we could talk about it. It could be on my blog um where I'm accepting comments.
1:04:55
You know, Utah did it in a Google doc for to get feedback for his constitution. uh there was so there's never a clear criteria of what counted
1:05:03
as acceptable socialization but there's there was this requirement of socialization and community collaboration. So, uh, yeah, like maybe
1:05:10
there's there's room for some sort of a standard for some sort of like an onchain alert. Uh, because I think that's the only commonality that we all have is we all look at the blockchain,
1:05:21
uh, hopefully on at least a semi-regular basis, whereas we might not be scanning the forums or gov tool or the intersect
1:05:28
discord every day. Um, we could at least subscribe to like an alert that happens on the blockchain. That that should be the ultimate route of trust, I would think.
1:05:39
Uh thank you for your insight Adam. Um yeah so bring KDLR like bring governance
1:05:47
closer to the participants either his wallet or Yeah. Uh if you have a good recommendation I'll put it in there. Um
1:05:56
meaningful of the time. Uh I have been horrible um at this. I already spent 9 minutes more than scheduled.
1:06:05
Uh I I want to uh sum this up round this up with uh thank you everybody who
1:06:12
have participated uh in this one hour long um workshop uh giving recommendation and um lifting up uh both
1:06:22
solutions and frustrations. Um I I have pinned in the chat as I said earlier um the link where you can upload and
1:06:31
download and uh prior say make priorizations and that will be most helpful uh for us
1:06:39
moving forward on recommendation in the in the report. Do you have something to add Nana or Tu? No, I just want to
1:06:48
say thank you very much to everybody who joined us today and of course thanks you again for uh steering the discussion and
1:06:55
you know bringing us to um 1610. It's I I personally I feel like we had a wonderful discussion lot of insights lot
1:07:03
of uh you know knowledge being shared here and I'm glad that everybody was able to enjoy the discussion. So yeah,
1:07:09
that's pretty much what I would say to bring this meeting to a close and then of course see you on our next sessions.
1:07:15
Uh as link is posted link from the link tree you can find the various sessions that we're going to have from next week. So please do check it and then join us.
1:07:23
Let's discuss CC and the rest that we have to discuss. Thank you very much. Do have a wonderful weekend.
1:07:29
Yes. Thank you so have a lovely weekend. Thank you. Bye-bye.